Stop Making More Ads — Fix THIS Instead
In the words of Andrew Foxwell, "It's just the guys" and they framed this episode around one big shift: 2025 was the year of creative diversity and raw ad volume, and 2026 is the year that questions, "what is all this volume actually pointing at?" Call it a return to intentionality, and the part of the funnel many brands have been ignoring while chasing creative volume: the landing page.
Brad opens by reacting to a Twitter conversation where operators sounded burnt out on the volume game, then reframes the discussion around what you can improve outside of ad creative. The crew works through Cherene's "marketing tornado" idea: If the same person sees your brand 15+ different ways, and the job is consistency of message across all of them, then it's important to arm Meta with creative, landing pages, and offers so its AI (Andromeda) can deliver the right message to the right person at the right time.
The heart of the episode is landing page strategy. Zach speed-runs the page-type hierarchy, then both hosts hammer funnel congruency, the ad-to-lander-to-PDP message match they admit was a big driver of their Feb/March scaling. Brad shares a beauty-brand example where simply turning a winning founder video's transcript into a congruent listicle scaled spend 60% month-over-month (twice) with zero new ads.
The short: stop hunting for the one winning page, run many congruent pages live at once, and let Meta allocate spend across them.
Key Takeaways
Why ad-to-landing-page-to-PDP "funnel congruency" is the piece most operators are still leaving on the table in 2026.
How one brand scaled spend 60% month-over-month (twice) with zero new ads.
Why you need to stop hunting for the single "winning" landing page and instead run many congruent pages live at once.
What it actually means to "sell one product 50 different ways," and why your angle TAM is more important than your category TAM.
Why the volume game is finally dead, and what the 2026 shift from "make more" to "what is this volume pointing at" means for your testing budget.
Why a "marketing tornado," is your best bet to keep message consistency when one buyer sees your brand 15+ different ways.
When it actually pays to set different CPA/ROAS targets by funnel stage and product.
Why a congruent landing page will lower your CPM, CPMR and earn you a "back tap" from the Meta auction.
The order you should be building and testing your landing pages.
This episode of the Scalability School podcast is sponsored by NorthBeam and they just launched Northbeam Incrementality. Northbeam Incrementality gives you easy, automated, self-service incrementality tests, while protecting you from the major mistakes so many people make while running incrementality tests. Your MTA handles the daily tactics, your MMM guides the long-term planning, and Incrementality provides the causal truth. It’s a closed loop that allows you to scale what works and cut what doesn't. Right now when you head over to www.northbeam.io/incrementality, they’re offering Scalability School listeners 50% off unlimited tests for a year when you join. Just tell them we sent you!
To connect with Andrew Foxwell send an email Andrew@foxwelldigital.com
To connect with Brad Ploch send him a DM at https://x.com/brad_ploch
To connect with Zach Stuck send him a DM at https://x.com/zachmstuck
Learn more about the Foxwell Founders Community at https://foxwellfounders.com
Learn more about the The Hive Haus Creators Community at http://HiveHausUGC.com
Full Transcript
Stop Making More Ads — Fix the THIS Instead - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbMchzmiI7w
Transcript:
(00:00) Landing pages offers to a degree can like meet different people where they're at as well, different points of AOV. It's like you might have people who are willing to buy a one-time subscription. You might have people who don't want to buy a one-time subscription, but they'll spend three times as much as much on the first order because they'll buy three months in advance.
(00:13) It's like there's these varying people are coming in at different entry points and having your, I guess your tornado, your marketing set up in a way where you can meet those people where they're at. That's what I'm thinking about. I can get more specific examples, but that's kind of the general sense of how I'm looking at this is like, can you arm Meta with the creative, the landing pages and the offers and allow them to kind of dictate when to show it to the right person at the right time? They're running ads about testosterone and
(00:39) tying it to their main product. They're running ads about weight loss and tying it to their main product. They're running ads about prebiotics and probiotics and like all of this, like, you know, gut health stuff and tying it to their main product. They built a brand and a product and Grunz built a brand and a product where they can literally come and talk about it in 50 different ways and convince you to buy the product because it solves that problem.
(01:02) The time to actually test and try to find the winning variance is I want to test a five reasons why against this five reasons why I want to change this headline on the five reasons why or whatever. I don't know. Joked with Brad to like not talk about it on the podcast too much because it was like a big piece of like what was allowing us to scale in like February, March.
(01:20) Not that we're trying not to give value, but Brad really wanted to give the sauce. I was like, let's hold a minute. And of course, now you go and you scroll Twitter and Chad from Grunz is talking about it and other people are talking about it. So that's a big thing. I mean, like, candidly, like for Holo, we've been doing funnel congruency from the very beginning.
(01:40) And now let's take a listen to the Scalability School podcast. Okay. Welcome to another episode of the Scalability School podcast. We are so jacked. Nobody else is here. No guests. It's just us. It's just the guys just shooting the breeze, talking about landing pages, marketing tornadoes, and the return of intentionality.
(02:02) We're making shakes. We got a lot of stuff going. I was just listening to the history of Coca-Cola. Okay. On the acquired podcast and which is a four and a half hour episode above a podcast. Okay. It's the history of Coca-Cola. Anyway, so I'm 20 minutes in and here's a funny thing that's noticed.
(02:22) So when they started the Coca-Cola and they started selling it in soda fountains, this is in the early, this is in the late 1890s. They had the product itself had four times the amount of caffeine and sugar that the, that current day Coca-Cola does. And it had fucking cocaine in it. So no wonder they were selling this thing.
(02:47) Everybody felt incredible drinking this. I just thought that was insane. Yeah. So people would come in. Yeah. So that's like 200 grams. That's like a, that's like a proper, that's like a proper energy drink. Yeah. They, they said like, it's like, it's like four local before four local. Right. Like, yeah, no shit. And so I was like, no wonder it felt, everybody felt incredible drinking this.
(03:07) So that, you know, if you want to start a successful company, put drugs in it. I mean, it was like people, energy drinks are literally selling like addictive, addictive substances, you know? And it's like, look, I'm like, I'm, I drink my two, 200, 250 milligrams a day. So I'm not, I'm not judging. I'm just saying it's like, it's not a, not a bad business model to sell things that are addictive, you know? Oh no, it's, it's not. Yeah.
(03:30) Yeah. It was, I was amazing. The amount of people that in, in Europe at our Foxville founders, Lisbon event that were, that were using either vape pens or Zinn like a lot to, so here, like being in California, like if you touch alcohol, people are like, you drink still. And it's like, it's so rare, you know? And like, obviously people could smoke pot all day.
(03:54) Like I saw a guy just literally asleep on the side of the road the other day. Like not a, not like a, not like somebody that had been up all night. Like, I think this guy had just like smoked and needed a nap. Um, he, he had, he had a white sweater wrapped around his shoulders is what I'm saying.
(04:12) Like a light, like he, he probably doesn't, he probably, probably calls the sweater a wrap. Sure. Do you know what I mean? It was an Armani sweater. Yeah. Yeah. It was an Armani sweater. Yeah. The guy was in a, the guy was in a Bentley. So it was, uh, speaking of pouches, Zach, when's, when's Marsman dropping the, uh, the pouches? Testosterone.
(04:29) That's the, that's the form factor. The test boosting pouches. Yeah. I see that. Throw a little nicotine in there. Get a little wild. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All right. Look, I tell you that we, we actually do have a podcast today. Let's talk about real shit. That's good. And, um, there's a lot of interesting things to talk about, uh, that Brad put together and Zach and I don't understand any of it.
(04:50) So we're flying blind into this. Actually, Zach understands that I don't. So let's talk about the, what we're getting into. So 2025 was all about creative diversity and volume. Everybody's into that game, right? So 2026, the question isn't, how do I make more? It's what is all this volume pointing at? Right.
(05:11) And I think this episode is basically a shift towards intentionality and part of the funnel that everyone ignored, the landing page. Brad, do you care to take it from there? Yeah. So I'll kind of set the stage with why this was interesting to me this, this week, uh, Twitter, this comes out a little bit after, so, uh, it's not gonna be super relevant in the immediate zeitgeist, but there was a conversation on Twitter about, uh, creative volume and the overwhelming sentiment that I was feeling is that people tried the volume game. It didn't
(05:42) work in the way that they thought it would, or it's not working as well as it was historically, or they're just like kind of getting burnt out on trying to make hundreds of ads a week or whatever it is. And there's some counterpoint saying is like, well, you don't have to do that. You should just make, make better ads, which I think is, uh, you know, that we can live in this like subjective, uh, opinion of like, okay, well, which one is better? Um, and obviously if you can make more of a good thing, you should probably make more of a good
(06:06) thing. But I think overwhelmingly, I've just seen people are kind of like frustrated with this idea of always trying to, to make more. And so what I wanted to open up discussion around was kind of like, how, what, what else can you do outside of creative to try and improve things? And where have we been seeing wins in the accounts that, that, um, that we see, uh, landing pages is a big one, uh, in general.
(06:28) And I have some opinions about marketing tornadoes, which I feel like I've mentioned this, maybe it's in, I don't know if I'm saying these on internal calls or what, but I said the word marketing tornado about 8,000 times in the last two weeks. Shireen, um, uh, DTC love DTC, Twitter love Shireen.
(06:44) Uh, she, she was actually the like original person that, uh, that coined the marketing tornado, but I'm just thinking more about landing pages, intentionality and, and what else you can do outside of the ad creative land to improve your marketing stack. So that's where I'm at. Zach, I don't know how you, you guys are, you guys are probably pumping out a ton of volume of ads and landing pages.
(07:05) So like, I know you guys are, you guys are already bought into the intentionality thing, but yeah, I don't, you guys are still pumping out a ton of volume. We're so Mars is in an interesting spot where we have like too many ads to launch, which is like a weird spot to be in where we don't want to offset our testing budget with our business as usual budget to lower overall performance.
(07:31) So we're like, the team is like, has a massive backlog of just ads and then the head of growth and head of pay just kind of get to pick what they have the most, you know, intuition of, of what could work, which is, you never know if that's true or not. Right. But, um, so I would say even us like hit a point where like my head of growth of Mars reveal today was like, yo, we got to stop signing creative agencies.
(07:55) Like we have too many creative agencies, uh, specifically for meta ads. So we're going to probably like, you know, not saying that we're going to go chop a bunch of agencies, but we're probably going to like slim that out, figure out who's got the most scale and then maybe probably divest into more creative for other channels.
(08:13) So like that's where Mars is at now. I'd say hollow is definitely still in the camp of like, just trying to make the best ads possible. I mean, we're out of like our peak season. So it's like how much, how many compression socks can we sell and how can we, you know, approach this a different way? So anyways, I would agree with the sentiment that intentionality is like the thing.
(08:34) And we definitely over indexed. Like I would say if we look back like two, two months ago, three months ago, we were over indexing in volume big time and we had to slow down and be like, okay, what the hell are we doing here? And that's kind of why we signed so many creative agencies. Cause we were like, we just want net new, really interesting ideas to add to the mix.
(08:50) Like outside of just our own team, kind of like hammering the same concepts. So what are some ways, Brad, in your opinion or Zach, that you would see marketing tornadoes, which is essentially assuming the person, same person sees you 15 ways and the job is consistency of message within that. Like what are other ways that you can do this? I mean, obviously metas, you can do this with meta ads to a degree with different types of ads talking about the same pain points or whatever else, but what are other ways instead of just looking at
(09:17) like the linear journal or the linear journey of, of, of add to funnel or to land or whatever. Yeah. So I think it, you can actually think about this from an account structure perspective and we don't have to spend too much time on this cause I don't, I don't think that's really the point of the conversation.
(09:33) But even if you think about this from like an account structure perspective, if you go back far enough, it's like, okay, you're running, like I'm talking 2017 far enough. It's like, you're running traffic campaigns. You're trying to retarget those people intentionally. It's like, you've tried to architect the perfect funnel from creative and targeting all the way from the top through conversion.
(09:51) And so obviously over time, meta has said, go broad, give us the keys, let us figure it out. And I think people have largely shifted that direction. Obviously people still have degrees of opinion on how much you should let meta do that. But from an account structure perspective, when I think about this from like the tornado philosophy is you want to have ads, ads in particular that speak to people at different parts of their buying journey.
(10:14) I think people are mostly bought into that. I think people realize, Hey, you might have a video. I think Mars posted a great founder video today. It was like a really nice, nice done video. I saw you post on Instagram. A really nicely well done videos. Like that's going to speak to a certain person. Some of this whitelisting influencer stuff is going to speak to a certain person.
(10:30) But on top of that, it's like, maybe you need to have offer ads. Like you want to have ads that reach people at different points in their, their awareness journey. I think people are mostly bought into that, or I think it starts to deviate. Maybe this is where it starts to answer your question. Landing pages offers to a degree can like meet different people where they're at as well. Different points of AOV.
(10:47) It's like, you might have people who are willing to buy a one-time subscription. You might have people who don't want to buy a one-time subscription, but they'll spend three times as much as much on the first order because they'll buy three months in advance. It's like, there's, there's these varying people are coming in at different entry points and having your, your, I guess your tornado, your marketing set up in a way where you can meet those people where they're at is this is, that's what I'm thinking about.
(11:06) I can give more specific examples. Like that's kind of the, the general sense of how I'm looking at this is like, can you arm meta with the creative, the landing pages and the offers and allow them to kind of dictate when to show it to the right person at the right time? Cause that's kind of the whole point of Andromeda, right? Is meta spends billions of dollars on GPUs.
(11:25) That's what they want you to do. Yeah. It's like they, they're trying to do personalization at scale because they want to deliver you the best ad at the best point in time when you're ready to make the most, when you're ready to make a purchase decision. Cause then morons like us will keep giving Zuck money.
(11:38) Let me, let me ask a question. I think it's really interesting that we've, I've been kind of posing to the team, which is how do you set targets of performance based on the type of creative or funnel that you are making the assumption of? So are you going to lower the CPA target or rise target? If you think it's a top of funnel ad, or are you going to basically assume all of it has to be treated the same way? Like I think most people aren't thinking that deep on this and they're kind of like, maybe they're making top of funnel ads,
(12:04) but then they're like, Oh, I killed it performance or shit. It's like, well, what was the percentage of new visitor? What was, you know? So how are you thinking about that? I tend to be a little bit more in the camp of allowing meta to dictate spend between ads. Um, I think what that can mean in the short term is that maybe they're wrong on a couple of like, here's an example.
(12:24) Like you launch an ad, it has an insane click the rate. It gobbles up a bunch of spend two days later, it's going to stop spending against that. If you are like, if you are somebody who has, you know, substantially more hands on keyboard wants to be, have full control over exactly what meta is doing, you probably would have paused it a day earlier than maybe I would have had.
(12:40) But what I think that allows me to do is get these other things that pick up and over time, I think you just notice a shift in how those things, in how ads landing pages deliver over time. And so I think that's, that's the value of the tornado as well as if you have these things live, when seasonality changes, and all of a sudden an ad that wasn't relevant two weeks ago, but now it's hot as balls outside and ever, you know, it's like, it's relevant again, that picks back up and spend like, am I setting different targets? I think
(13:04) at this point, no, not yet. I think to your point, like where it starts to get tricky is when you're at an insane level of scale where it's like meta maybe isn't as incremental and isn't making good decisions because it doesn't know that your influencer whitelisted ad is more incremental than the branded ad that's whatever right next to it, but that ROAS looks better.
(13:23) Um, that's where it starts to get tricky. I don't have a great answer for you, but I think it's a good thing to be thinking about. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I think to your point, Zach, and we were having a discussion in the founders community the other day with a couple of our bigger spenders. And I think if you have the scale, I think you absolutely need to be setting different targets for these things because you, you know, you have to look, there has to be benchmark and looking at an account wide, especially if you have a product mix,
(13:46) it's not going to be useful to judge them all the same. I think it's, it's very similar to why you have different funnels based on the product types. Like it's, you know, it's like there's going to be a funnel, you know, for, for this product, that product A, B, C, D, F, as you get more scale, and that's a way that you're going to be able to squeeze more out of it.
(14:03) But I think, so, so the answer is yes. And I think judging it based on yes, you know, new customer, whatever you want to look at, whatever the metrics are that are important, that are really important in the business. I think it's important to start to differentiate those as you get more sophisticated.
(14:18) To me, though, when you start to look at that type of thing is, I'm going to say when you're sort of in the like hundred thousand a month range and spend on meta. I don't know how you guys feel about that number, but I got, there was a comment somebody sent me and they were like, can you guys talk about when you're talking about big or small? And so that's how I'm trying to define that.
(14:38) I think you should certainly see opportunity with certain ones. If you're doing 75k a month and spend, some of the smaller brands are listening to this, right? Like, I think you could start to do some splits like that if there's different products. But I think as you, as you incrementally scale, that's one of the things that you want to be watching is yes, having those things be separate because they're not all created equal, especially if you have different bundles and you know, that have higher margin, like you're going to want to optimize for
(15:00) that. And you're going to want to think about that a little bit differently in terms of measurement and going through versus just like sort of boiling it down. Now, to your point, Brad, I think you can still have all of these ads in the same, they can still be running together, letting meta sort of do the combinations it needs to. Right.
(15:14) But I think that in terms of measuring it, looking at only one thing in terms of like CPA or whatever the metrics are across all of them, isn't going to be useful as you go forward. I think you have to do a little bit of delineation between. Yeah. I don't know, Zach, is that what you, is that what do you think? Is it the reason why you asked me the question? Yeah, I mean, I'm asking the question because I think it's, it's interesting.
(15:35) I mean, I think that that's one thing that I've just been kind of, I wouldn't say struggling with, but thinking about a lot because if we're hitting for, you know, for, um, for Marsman or hollow, like our NC Ross or NCPA target, Mars is easier because it's basically NCPA. But if we're hitting our CPA, our CPA target, do I really give a shit what's happening inside the ad account? Right.
(15:59) Do I really care as long as performance is stable and it's like doing, doing its thing. Right. So that, that's the one piece that I'm kind of like a little indifferent about. If, if your business is simpler, I think it's easier to kind of let it play itself out. If it's more complicated to your point, uh, even like hollow, for example, like we have different funnels with different AOVs, whatever, like we have to obviously like keep an eye on that, but it's more about like the funnel stage that I think is like the, the next added layer of
(16:25) like, do I actually, you know, step in and get in, in meta's way because this ad is spending a shit ton and it's like a static ad. That's like a discount ad or because like CPA looks really good or maybe it's average for that ad that I know should be bottom of funnel. Should I kill that? Because if it's a bottom of funnel ad, that's like an offer edge, it should have a higher ROAS to offset the lower ROAS top of funnel ad.
(16:51) So it's like, how much do you want to play God in that situation? I think is like a really interesting, like, yeah, I think thing to mess around with. One is, I mean, one is, I think that it's, it's very hard to accept the meta of today versus meta that we were all raised on, which is like, we would be doing that. Right. So that's one. I think that, you know, over time, you know, metas would like to say, look, we're going to, we're going to definitely only show that, you know, here and there, but like meta, we sort of all know that if there's a discount ad in the
(17:18) account and it's got a ripping CPA, they're going to show that more. Like it's true. Like they're, because it's going to optimize for results and that's what you try, that's what you say your goal is. Right. So they're going to, that's going to be shown more. So I think that there are absolutely instances where with, especially with discount ads or with something that's a prime promotion, or, you know, you only want to show it to people that are, you know, haven't purchased in 60 days or whatever. The thing is, like, I think
(17:41) it's okay to separate those things out. Like, even if they don't, if they're not going to hold the incremental scale and it's not to throw it all together, let meta decide. I do think that if it's something that's going to degrade the overall account, absolutely. The separation of those is still a valid tactic.
(17:56) That's why that still exists. Right. Like, I don't know, Brad, do you think that's wrong or what's your opinion? Not to be the cost control guy here, but like, that's where cost controls are interesting. If nothing else is because like, if you, let's say, let's say you do have them in separate campaigns, like you've got your, your normal kind of evergreen ads, and then you launch a separate campaign for a promo and you're running both of those things on cost caps.
(18:20) To your point, what you might see is maybe the evergreen starts to throttle down and spend because all of a sudden the attention that would otherwise go to that campaign is being absorbed by the promo campaign. And that's what, that's what, I have a couple of examples that I think are, are interesting for this.
(18:36) And I kind of, kind of brings us back around to the whole point of tornadoes, generally speaking. But I think, I think the, I guess the, the goal in the ad account is having, having as many things that are thoughtfully built out that can reach different people at different points of the buying journey. And then I personally lean towards letting that meta allocate between those through a function of jamming everything into a CBO, cost controls and things like that.
(19:02) Yeah. So, so to your point, you're saying instead of having it be the container of an ABO, CBO, whatever, with certain, you know, it's like cost control it and let that be the way that you're, that you're limiting it, which I think is valid. Yeah. And because like, so if you've ever, you know, if you, if you watch campaigns, it's like, there's only so much available volume every single day.
(19:23) And so let's say that the available volume today for your, your campaign is, is $3,000. And, but your, your, your highest volume, lowest cost, however you want to phrase it, budget is set at $4,000. Like you're going to be off target. But if you, if you are, have two campaigns set up and they're both set at $3,000, they have cost controls set up.
(19:42) It's like, well, depending on the day, the dollar is going to allocate to the one that's going to be most efficient. And it's not perfect every single day, but over time you just, yeah. I think that the idea of the ad account kind of being this like pipeline that can expand and contract based on what's in it, seasonality, things like that helps kind of visualize this in my brain.
(20:04) So, I mean, I want to ask Zach about landing pages. Brad's got an example of sort of going from having not no real landing page, having landing pages and seeing like accounts scale, you guys are obviously building a ton of different landing pages all the time. Do the landing pages, you know, how, how important to you guys is landing page congruency between the ad and landing page? And how important is the diversity of offer or type of landing pages as well? Like five reasons why, listicle, how do you, how do you even begin to sort of think about
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(21:54) And there's congruency, but there's also choice. I could talk about this for like an hour, but I think like speed, speed run it. Start with listicles. It's the easiest thing to do. It's the, it's the simplest template. It does what the human brain likes, which is like simplifies things down into a step-by-step process, which is why I think, I think most consumers resonate with it.
(22:13) Cause it's like, what is this thing? Five, five different reasons, seven different reasons why you might like this or why it's going to solve your problem or whatever. Right. So I always say, start with listicles. I'm still top performer for what it's worth for hollow Mars. Like we still spend the most behind them. Then obviously there's like advertorials.
(22:28) I think advertorials are just really hard to do. So I usually tell people to like wait until you like have absolutely optimized the shit out of your listicles. And then there's what there's quiz, which is like, I think a bigger one that more people now on Twitter, especially like in the supplement or health and wellness space are starting to pursue and rip our quiz off for what it's worth.
(22:48) That's okay. Cause I think we ripped like a couple other people's quizzes combined to create ours. So all is good at the end of the day. But quiz is a huge one. Like I think not enough brands are, are building quizzes that should be, if you're a problem solution product at the end of the day, you should be running quizzes.
(23:05) And that could be anything from health and wellness to physical goods to whatever. Right. So outside of that, I mean, the congruency piece is huge. I've like joked with Brad to like not talk about it on the podcast too much because it was like a big piece of like what was allowing us to scale February and March.
(23:22) Not that we're trying not to give value, but Brad really wanted to give this to us. And I was like, let's hold a minute. And of course now you go and you scroll Twitter and Chad from Gruens is talking about it and other people are talking about it. So that's a big thing. I mean, like candidly, like for hollow, we've been doing funnel congruency from the very beginning, right? Like that business was built on me trying to find pockets and cohorts of customers where we would match the listicles to the static ads. So I've been a fan of
(23:45) that strategy for a long time, but doing it to a level that we are now, even like for Mars is like super interesting where we have, you know, a pain point or something that we're going after, which might be like dad bods for weight loss for summer. And we're going to have ads match the listicle or ads match the first page of the quiz and then follow through.
(24:03) It's a big thing. The only other sentiment that I would say is we've been testing and this is like some alpha is that we've been testing like running a congruent landing page and then putting PDP on the bottom of the page. So there's like one full funnel within a single page that's been like ripping.
(24:20) So I think we're going to see more congruent funnels that basically go from ad concepts, angle, hook, whatever you want to call it, positioning to a page that's talking about the same thing to a product page that's talking about the same thing. Because I think what happens is like we used to say, hey, run ad. That's like the angle to a landing page that's probably talking about it, congruency.
(24:41) Then they go on to the PDP and the PDP is general because you don't want to make a PDP so specific that then it can't be sold to all these other different positions. Now I think it's going to be congruent ad lander PDP, but you can do that all within like the landing page ecosystem because pages are getting so much easier to build. All right, friends, quick break.
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(25:57) And when the test concludes, your results flow straight into your MTA, meaning you can easily see results alongside the rest of your data. Incrementality was broken. Northbeam fixed it. I'll stop there. What's interesting, there's like, if do we tie this back to being intentional about building a congruent funnel, how many times can we say those random words? Like you didn't just start by saying, somebody told me on Twitter to make a listicle, I'm gonna go make a listicle.
(26:21) It's like, no, we saw that this specific cohort was resonating with this specific message. And then we watched our ads, we watched all the ads that were grouped into these categories of this specific persona. So we always use the hunter example, historically. So it's like you saw people, hunters were buying hollow socks.
(26:38) And there was probably a handful of reasons why people were buying those socks that informed the listicle. And then just kind of becomes this circular thing of, okay, these ads are informing the landing page, landing page can form the ads. And then you can, you can kind of build this, this cycle of testing and learning within that.
(26:53) But then it's like, there's, there's a bunch of other things you can do. Like that's where I think we had this whole episode on playbooks. Like this, the playbook episode was like a pre, this was months and months ago. It was like, it was a preview to this. Cause it's like, once you have hunters ripping, you can go to, I'm just pulling random people out.
(27:05) I don't know shit about hunting. Joe Rogan is a really well-known hunter. It's like, you can go, obviously it's a, that's a stretch, but like you can go to hunters and you can get them to create content. You can figure out whitelisting partnerships with them. Maybe you can make products for these people. It's like, that's like the level of being intentional.
(27:19) It's like, there's, there's progression to it. It starts with trying to get the ads that are, that people are resonating with and then going, there with it. Yeah. I'll give you the one example that I, that I have, where it's like, it's so obvious that this was meaningful. We came in to a brand, uh, they sell high OV, um, beauty product as kind of where I'll leave that.
(27:37) And they were, they had a great founder ad that was just like crushing literally like the only thing that we did, we were, we were trying to launch ads that could beat it. And we were like, ah, getting tiny little incremental wins here and there. And then we just like took the transcript of the ad, looked at who was responding to the ad, which was women 45 and up.
(27:53) Uh, and then said, okay, what is this ad saying? And in what order? And then turn that into a listicle. And it literally increased, like we, we scaled their spend 60% month over month twice with no new ending ads. Like, I wish I could say we hit on a banger new ad, but it's like, we just made the ad more consistent.
(28:09) It said it spoke exactly to, to, to the demo that was buying it, listed out the reasons from the video that they resonated with in the first place. Um, and it just, yeah, it, it ripped. And there's like countless examples of this where it's like, if you're going zero to one to your point on landing pages, it's okay.
(28:24) Go watch your top performing ads and figure out what the hell it's saying. Go look at the breakdown and meta of who it's delivering to go look at some of the comments and then boom, now you can build a landing page with that information. The other part that people forget is people don't watch your whole ad. You may tell a story and they get like through chapter three and you're, you've got 20 chapters, you know what I mean? So it's like taking the ad and they get a taste of it, like letting them like, whatever, get that same taste the second
(28:51) they land on it and then continue to go through the rest of the story on the pages. It just makes sense, right? It's like telling the whole story before they're sold on the product. This is just like something I've been thinking a lot about lately, about like future, future product ideas, future brands, whatever.
(29:04) Um, and the brands that are crushing. I think a lot of people need to think about this before they start a product or start a brand, or even if they're like looking at their own business and what to focus on is create a product or sell a product, which this sounds like maybe fucking obvious, but it's just like it clicked the last couple of weeks that you can sell it with like 50 fucking angles.
(29:24) Like you want the ability to sell it to all these different things. So I'll use I made as an example, cause this is one that's just been like tripping me up. They're running ads about testosterone and tying it to their main product. They're running ads about weight loss and tying it to their main product.
(29:42) They're running ads about prebiotics and probiotics and like all of this, like, you know, gut health stuff and tying it to their main product. They built a brand in a product and Grunz built a brand and a product where they could literally come and talk about it in 50 different ways and convince you to buy the product because it solves that problem.
(30:02) I think this is why hollow, despite it being like fucking alpaca socks has worked is because we take the same approach, which is like, I can sell you these socks, but I will sell it to you how you want to be sold. Not like how I think it should be sold. So thinking about products in the future, I think is like not going so tight and so narrow and having the ability to say, Hey, we can tie it to all these different pillars, but still land you on the same thing.
(30:25) It just gives a business so much more scale to grow. And like people talk about Tam. Sure. Tam is a thing, but it's like, what is your, what are your angles, Tam? What is your like positioning Tam? Like those I think are things that not a lot of people think enough about. And that's really where the scale happened.
(30:41) So a little bit of a rabbit hole off of what you're talking about, but I think it's super interesting. Yeah. I think that's, I think it's huge. I mean, it's, you want to give yourself as many options as possible. And I totally agree with you on the, on the landing pages that you guys are talking about, um, you know, outside of taking sort of a copy of the ad and re-explaining it and things like that.
(31:00) Um, talk to me about the components of what you've seen with winning landing pages. Are we talking about, you know, is there a nav bar? Is there, you know, is, is it, is it built for mobile first? Like what are, are there some components of here? Like, does it, does it make the buy box, you know, or subscribe? Like, does it ask for an email first so that there's a cappy signal? Like what are some pieces of this that you've seen that are more successful? I can, I'll go on a couple of things that stand out.
(31:28) And I think Zach, you've probably mentioned some of these in the past, but like I click on, I click on a lot of ads from people that I recognize on Twitter. Cause like they pop up in my feed. The amount of times I've seen a comparison chart at the top, it looks exactly like hollows, like not even changed colors is incredible.
(31:43) But the comparison chart at the top of like a listicle page is like a nice little like summary view, whether it's comparing it to a direct competitor or like alternative options. Um, but it's kind of like resonating with the ad. I'm struggling to think of like an immediate example on top of my head, but obviously the headline is extremely meaningful.
(32:00) But then having that like summary view, whether it's a little bit of like a TLDR and it's extension of what the messaging is in the ad, but that like a comparison chart literally directly at the top of a listicle consistently works pretty well for, for us, especially if it aligns with some of the messaging in the ad. Like the, if I go back to the product that I was previously talking about at the top of their page, it's got a comparison chart to alternative products.
(32:21) It's like, there's two, there's two distinct reasons why somebody might buy this product. It's either because they're concerned about like how they look or about their, eyesight. There's competitive products. Don't solve both of those at once, but this product does. And so that quickly addresses it in that comparison chart before you actually go and consume the rest of the page, which details it.
(32:40) Um, that's like one of the things that I've seen consistently showing up. Something that I will say is a lot of brands aren't like telling the story of their offer well enough. They like put it maybe in like the little top bar and it's like you rip scroll through that, or like maybe there's a tiny little call out in the hero section of a page or it's all the way at the bottom.
(33:02) I think teasing that more throughout the page, I think is, is helpful. And not a lot of brands are thinking about that. So I would say that's something that we've tested recently. That's like helped a lot is, is actually like bringing that offer language more to the forefront to kind of like keep them compelled. It's like, yeah, you can learn this, this, this also you get this offer while you learn this, this, this, and then shop now.
(33:23) So it's like, that's just one other sentiment I guess I'll, I'll share, but I was going to say, are you guys like, I don't, I don't even know where this would show up, but like when, when you want, when you get people on subscription and you want them to be sticky, like in the case of like Mars, are you thinking about any ads or landing page or pre-purchase? Like how, Hey, in the first 30 days, I know you guys, I think there's like, everybody's ripped off the timeline thing too.
(33:51) Like the timeline is like by day three, you're going to see this, this, and this. So are you guys like pre-positioning to say like, Hey, the first three days you might feel something, but like by day 90, that's when you're really going to see something. So try to like plant the seed ahead of time. I don't know how you'd even measure that impact on retention, but kind of like planting the seed that yes, you'll feel, you'll feel solid in a couple of weeks maybe, but really by month three, month six, month 12, like that's where you're going to see
(34:12) the meaningful impact. Does that show up on your pages? That ties in with the offer piece too, right? It does. Yeah. Another thing I've been thinking a lot about is just like, how do we get people compelled to use the product for 90 days? Cause that's, that's where you're going to get the best results.
(34:26) And we've played around with like showing a 90 day or quarterly subscription or not. And like for us, it just doesn't make as much sense. Some brands justified. I think that more should audit if they should do quarterly or not and actually look at their contribution margin by month and payback period and ability to scale faster.
(34:40) If they, if they don't defer revenue, but yeah, I think like we use it and we kind of try to tell that story and we've, we've, we've taken some of those elements. Those are more, I think PDP elements from our ends than they are like, do I need to tell us where they need to take it for 90 days while I'm trying to educate them before I sell them.
(34:57) I think a lander sometimes like that's where it's like, if you, if you're going to try to do the one shot, you know, what Gurns used to do, which is basically like shoot everyone to the Gurns.co, you know, their, their homepage and just like all traffic goes there. You've got content, learn and then shop. I think if you're going to do all that one experience or like a primal queen situation where it's like all in one experience, I think that makes sense to then add that.
(35:19) But if it's not, I would probably move that content. We've, we've, we've tried it. It just hasn't really made an impact. I think it's like convincing someone that they need to do something for 90 days before they've even seen the price is like maybe not as ideal, but that's just, that's just my take. No, it makes a ton of sense.
(35:34) Aviating slightly and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole too much, but we're talking about like having all of these different entry points. You're talking about having 50 angles that you should go into the brand with. What does that mean for the value of, this is like very philosophical. Like we don't have to spend too much time on this at all, but it's like, what does that mean for the value of brand? If like everybody like comfort, right? Comfort's a great example of this, where they have an army of 8 million creators or whatever,
(35:58) some insane number where all those people are kind of saying a lot of, like some of them are saying the same thing, maybe in some in different ways, but it's like, what role does brand play when people are coming in on like a completely different experience? Like what is the, what is the shared thing, if anything, or is that where this like amorphous word of like, I mean, especially from the perspective of like everything looks consistent and looks the same.
(36:20) That seems to be like melting away a little bit more. I don't know. I don't even know my question. I think, yeah, no, I think, I think I'm, I mean, I'm picking up what you're saying. I think it's, would you rather be the wellness brands or would you rather be the green powder gummy brands? Right.
(36:39) I think I'd rather be the wellness brand. So I think it's okay if the brand is known for being a little bit more holistic thing. Right. So Mars men, we want to be known as like the men's health brand. We don't just want to be a tea booster brand forever. Right. So I'd say like even comfort, like I think they have, you know, a million different angles and positioning and whatever, and it all ends up being comfy clothes for the most part.
(37:01) It's like, I think that that has like a, you know, a mental health like component to it as well. Like I think that that's what they're okay being known for that, like big halo thing. And that is their brand. I'd almost say like not being super niche and having a little bit more holistic is like what a brand is known for. Right.
(37:16) When you think Nike, I think shoes, I don't think like fucking track jackets and shit always. Right. So I think that that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it's, I think it's an interesting point. It's like how, I think there's a lot of people that are trying to go more niche and, and, and thinking about it that way.
(37:32) But I think as you start to get bigger and want to have, want to scale into a lot of different angles, you turning it into a brand and a brand that's known for something is going to create a totally different ballgame for a lot of folks and is going to help you scale ultimately as well, just because it's like, they can trust the name that's behind it.
(37:48) And they know that that's what they're buying that with comfort with, you know, they're buying comfortable stuff. That's what they're, you know, that's what it is, regardless of what the product particularly is going forward. It's interesting. Within this is a talk about partnership ads really briefly.
(38:07) Do you, you know, also match landing pages with the partnership ad or the partner, the person that you're working with? I mean, I've seen it done both ways, right? Like if it's a big enough person, you can do that. And you put the video on there. It's not as common. Most of the time I just see it sent to like a general, like successful lander.
(38:23) But what do you guys think? And what have you heard? I can go first. We've tested it for small creators and big creators. It only really matters for the big ones is like what we found. If it's just like, whatever, Sally Smith, like it doesn't matter as much unless it's going to be a, like a, a more, um, like a doctor or something that, that then even their following doesn't have to be that big and then it can follow through.
(38:45) Or if it, if it goes to like more of an advertorial, like their story, but if it's like a listicle and then it includes Sally Smith, like doesn't matter as much. But if it's like a celebrity, A, B, C list celebrity, like I think then it can usually carry more weight. And that's what we've seen in performance. Yeah.
(39:04) I, I haven't, I haven't done a ton of this, but, um, this could be an interesting segue into kind of having a bunch of different landing pages live at once. But, um, we've got, we've got brands where they have like an advertorial or like a page that's the founder's story and it's coming from attached to the founder's ads, uh, has not historically been the top spending landing page at any given time, but it does a really good job at like capturing additional volume, um, from, you know, maybe people that are a little bit further down the funnel and they've already been
(39:30) do the listicle page. Maybe they've seen a couple of ads. So haven't done any crazy testing on that. It's something I'd like to do a little bit more of, but the, the founder advertorial kind of pages is what we've seen some solid success with. I'm going to, I'm just going to go back to this point I was making earlier. Okay.
(39:46) So I think we used to, I maybe used to say, and I will change my perspective on this, that having like this niche that to go after is like the best way to build a business. You want to build a $10 million business, like in e-com, that is a great opportunity to go do, right? It's like have this thing to go do.
(40:02) But if you're trying to build a big nine figure business, you need the ability to like really broaden, broaden that out. I'm in Atria right now. I don't know if this is against the sponsor, if it is beep that name, but, um, I'm in Atria looking at IM8s at angles and it's fucking crazy. It's like, they are talking about, let's see here. They're talking about cellular support.
(40:25) They're talking about naturally like declining with like things naturally declining with age. They're talking about improving guts. They're talking about stress management. They're talking about like so many muscle recovery. Like, it's just like the broadest ability to talk about all these things.
(40:42) These are the brands that scale to nine figures. If you, if you really are just like, Hey, we're a sleep supplement, like you're probably going to have a harder time scaling to nine figures because you can only talk about sleep. So anyways, I mean, like that's where I'd almost question myself now, but when I just said that where I'm like, okay, well it could, sleep could impact your recovery, which could impact all these other things.
(41:00) So I think that goes back to the point of saying, can you sell your product a million different ways? And I think you need to like look outside that, that scope besides just saying, can you, can I, can I help you sleep better? Like what else does sleep do to impact people's lives? And like, maybe you can reposition it 20 different ways to get more scale.
(41:18) Well, we wouldn't be e-commerce D2C gurus if we didn't say something and then completely contradict ourselves later so that people listening are confused. That's just part of our, our, this is, you know, that's, that's where we live. You know, that's why we get to say it depends. It depends. It does. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's, I mean, I, but I think it's true.
(41:38) I think it's true. Like it's, that's, that's the next level of growth. You have to become more to more people. Like you can't just be a person. You can build a $10 million company on being the person that sells shoes to mountain bikers or whatever it is. Like, you know, I can, I completely agree with you.
(41:55) And that's when it's, it's shifting into becoming a brand or, you know, or you also do a brand, but you also do something like Sean is done with Ridge, which is like product diversification that are completely different from one another. And like, there is a brand there, but there's also like massive product diversification that like they're able to cross sell and upsell, you know? So it's like, I feel like yours are more adjacent in terms of you're going to sell a T supplement and then it's going to be other products that are closer to that
(42:23) necessarily. Right. But I think that that's, if you look at, you know, you look at even like comfort or you look at quince, the men, like a clothing brand quince, like we all know them. They're a huge company now, largely on the back of like being creative in terms of product categories are going after.
(42:39) They're just, now they're like, yeah, you know what, we're going to try that. And that's that inflection point happened when they got outside money. Like they were like, this is what you're going to go do now. So yeah, it's interesting, but. Well, exact to give you credit in the past, it's like, I think when you've said this in the past, maybe not on this immediate like episode, but like in previous episodes, like maybe the playbook episodes, like you can take a specific persona angle, whatever, like pretty far, obviously TAM dependent,
(43:04) right? Like maybe hunters isn't the most massive category, but compression socks are, it's like, you could take compression maybe way further than you could say hunters, but like you can take it far by being more intentional, kind of the whole, whole theme here. But yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that that's mostly just where when people talk about like getting stuck with their business, I think they need to assess that.
(43:23) And they need to think about the next product being something that can be sold 50 different ways, but still come back to the same simple product, right? That's why, that's why these businesses grow. It's like when you have to buy sizes and all this different shit, like it just overcomplicates the company when it's literally a one product that can ship in a poly mailer, like it really does simplify that.
(43:43) So yeah. Can we, can we deviate to this all like landing page diversification thing for a second? Can I give a, can I give an example of this? Yes. Perfect. I've been dying to do this. I'm just like, shaking over here. So, okay. So I think what's really interesting is like, okay, everybody's been talking about this idea of ad diversity, ad volume, et cetera.
(44:01) And to your point earlier, it's like landing pages are getting progressively easier and easier to build on the back of AI mostly. And with that, I don't think the goal of landing page testing is necessarily to find the one winner, just like it's not, you don't, you don't need your goal isn't just find one ad.
(44:15) Like you're trying to find a bunch of bangers that can kind of support the entire thing, whether you're talking about a bunch of different angles or you're focused in on one specific angle. And we started to see this to be true with, with landing pages this year. So I've got an example pulled up the last 30 days, brand spent around 300 grand.
(44:28) Half of the spend is going to a five reasons why page, right? So like that's half the spend. Then the other half of the spend is going to a different five reasons why page. And then another, or not, sorry, not another half, half the spend, 15, 20% of the spend is going to another five reasons why page. An advertorial style page is taking up another chunk of that spend.
(44:47) We had a quiz page, which if you asked me this, if I was sharing these numbers 60 days ago, the quiz was the top spend. It was, it was 50% of the ad account. And that's kind of, that's kind of a point of the, if I'm looping this back to the tornado piece, it's like, if you have all these pages live and they all have the same ad going to them, right? Like it's not like the ad is specifically different.
(45:03) And for this product that works, but it's like all, all of the ads are the same to all the different landing pages. But what you'll find is that meta will deliver them differently to the person that's going to resonate with that page. So it's, you have a five reasons why page, you have a quiz page, you have an advertorial, you have these different types of pages, and then you still have your PDP.
(45:18) Cause there's going to be people who are clicking on the product on white background. Cause they've seen all 10 of your ads so far. And they, all they need is the final one that says, here's the offer, click to buy, and it sends them to the PDP. But if you have all those things available, you'll see different delivery.
(45:33) And one, one more piece I found that was really interesting on this, if I go back to the example of the brand that I was talking about earlier, the beauty brand, when we launched that landing page, everybody's obsessed with CPMR right now. They were able to scale their spend and CPMR went down as a result of this page.
(45:48) Cause all of a sudden this ad is more relevant and meta knows that the ads are relevant. People are going to convert better and there's a better experience overall. So they're going to, they're going to give you that little back tap in the auction to like, say, cool, we, we like this. Like, you know, you're, this is great.
(46:00) Like keep, keep going. So a lot of, a lot of points in there, but I think there, there can, you can have, you're not just trying to find one winning page. Like you're not testing your PDP versus your landing page. You can have them all live, just like let them all live and let meta allocate the spend between them is my opinion.
(46:14) The time to actually test and try to find the winning variances. I want to test a five reasons why against this five reasons why, or I want to change this headline on the five reasons why or whatever. Um, I don't know. Just dying to share that. You're, you're spot on. I mean, I'm looking at, I'm looking at Mars Landers, which just has more scale than hollow now.
(46:31) So I think it's just interesting to call out 29 pages have gotten spent in the last 14 days. Like the, it takes having these like different pockets to be able to get more scale. And I think also more efficiency at the same time. So it's like, yeah, I mean, one has, one has 450 K in spend one has 200, once 150, then 150, then 120, then a hundred.
(46:53) But like that, you know, there's so many like 80, 50, 60, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40. Like there's so much spread out. Right. So I think just to assume, like you said, one banger isn't going to, you know, maybe if you've not tested landing pages before to get the one banger is great, but like to get more scale and get more efficiency, especially if you're running, I think, especially if you're running cost controls, like having more shots at goal is actually like the best way to do it.
(47:19) And if you can tie it into congruency, I think meta actually sees it as a completely different funnel, which I think helps with, with auction. Yeah. And you have the same ads going to like those page, like maybe it's the same ad going to several of those pages. Right. And I'm sure there's a mix, but like you're trying to do less probably going to three.
(47:35) We're trying to do less of that now though, and try to keep it like we're only launching ads if there's a congruent page to launch it to, if it's about weight loss or if it's about GLPs or if it's about whatever, uh, you know, anti-aging or whatever. We're seeing that that's working better and more efficient if you can just wait and actually tie it to a page that said we do, we would run the ads to a 10 reasons, like our top 10 reasons and our top quiz. Right.
(47:58) So it's like, of course that's still going to happen, but I think there's less and less of that now. I think, um, you guys, maybe this is a lot of alpha that I'm going to share, but I don't know if you've ever heard of the six reasons why, but it's pretty, it's pretty dope. It's actually one more reason why, which is what makes it great.
(48:13) Um, then you have. So all y'all suck is out here still doing five. You know, I'm over here doing six. Ironically, seven has been working better than five recently. Well, look at Mars. We're running 10. Yeah. Well, Hey, thanks for tuning in everybody. If you loved this, please email me, Andrew at foxhole digital.
(48:36) com rate us on your favorite platforms. Tell all the SAS companies that we mentioned on this episode that you heard about, heard about them from us. Uh, and we are appreciative of you listening all the way to the end. So until next time, take care. This episode is brought to you by Brad's company, work marketing.
(48:57) If you need a DTC marketing agency, let me tell you, Homestead is great, but work marketing is also fantastic. And let me tell you, you aren't going to find friendlier people out there, uh, in the e-commerce space. So we decided to do these little ads for each other's companies. So hopefully you find it interesting, but seriously, great team at work marketing, very smart.
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(49:39) I mean, if you want an agency that cares about your business much more than they care about their own website, I just tried to load work marketing.com and it was broken. So they're definitely going to give more of a shit about your business than their own. So I highly recommend Brad and the team over at work. They've been incredible.
(49:55) We've referred a lot of business over to them as well. Really, really good as far as like cracking funnels and figuring out like rapid growth for brands. So I highly recommend these guys. The only way that we grow this podcast is by you sharing it with your friends. Honestly, like reviews kind of don't really mean anything too much anymore.
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