UGF WTF? - With Courtney Fritts
This episode is basically a masterclass in how media buyers and UGC creators should actually work together, not just pretend to. Courtney walks through her unique vantage point as both a media buyer and a creator: she runs strategy and ad buying for brands from that spend from $3k/month all the way up to $1MM/month in spend, leads the Foxwell Founders “small spenders” cohort, and also produces UGC herself. This dual role lets her see where brands and creators constantly miss each other.
Key Takeaways:
They creative types that are currently working without overcomplicating things.
Why your best-performing ad doesn’t have a great hook rate, but is still printing money.
Are you over paying creators for “usage rights” you don’t actually need? What Courtney believes you should be paying creators for a piece of content.
The 1 thing media buyers wished UGC creators understood about spend and why some creatives never leave the learning phase.
How your creative brief might be the #1 thing killing authenticity and performance.
How performance results could change by evaluating your creators on these two criteria over their logos and case studies.
Why you shouldn't be asking creators to “go viral” and instead be building a system for consistent, high-quality, testable content.
The amount of performance you are likely leaving on the table by chasing trends, and other no-nos when working with creators.
Are you quietly over-indexing on marketing Twitter and case studies—and under-indexing on the nuance inside your own accounts?
This episode is sponsored by Northbeam, the marketing attribution platform that we love here at Scalability School. If you’re ready to cut through the noise, stop guessing, and actually see which ads are driving your business, book a demo at northbeam.io/demo, and tell them Scalability School sent you. Join the club.
To connect with Courtney Fritts, you can email her at Courtney@axiommarketing.co
or in one of the Foxwell Digital Communities: www.hivehausugc.com or foxwellfounders.com
To connect with Andrew Foxwell send an email Andrew@foxwelldigital.com
To connect with Brad Ploch send him a DM at https://x.com/brad_ploch
To connect with Zach Stuck send him a DM at https://x.com/zachmstuck
Learn More about the Foxwell Founders Community at https://foxwellfounders.com/
Full Transcript
(00:00) I wanted to make sure that there was no way that any of us could pre-prepare for this because it's really important. Courtney, this actually isn't for you because I know you are capable of trading and have created several ads that you've been featured in that have spent hundreds, if not maybe millions of dollars.
(00:13) I don't know what the upper threshold is, but you're a star in several banger UGC ads and that's not even counting the ones that you've scripted. And I can also say that I've been in ads that I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.
(00:26) So my question is actually Andrew, have you ever been featured or created an ad that has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on meta? You know, I have. I think creators don't understand the algorithm and not that I do either, but there's been plenty of times where I get an ad and I'm like, this is great. I love it. It's so wonderful. We've talked about this in Hype House cohort calls. This is amazing. I put it in the account and it spends $2.
(00:45) And then I'm like, weird. I'll rather than let it let me force spend. And then it spends $100 and has not a single ad to cart. And I'm like, it's such a good ad. Why is this not working? And it's frustrating as a media buyer and it's frustrating as a creator whenever they reach back out and they want performance data and you're like, it spent $200 didn't get a single purchase.
(01:03) And so I had to turn it off or it spent $60 and I can't force spend there because it's not working. But in terms of like paying for the content, I mean, the bigger the brand, the more you could pay. However, I don't think a single piece of UGC is worth more than six, $700 from the brand's account. Again, not whitelisting. Um, it's just, it's hard to make those numbers work and hit rate nowadays.
(01:25) Average is so low that like I recently paid $1,000 for a piece of content. The content completely flopped. Cool. That was a loss for me. So I would say generally like 250 to 500 is my sweet spot. I'll go a little over that. Um, I'll also go over that.
(01:43) If the creator is proven for that specific brand, this could actually be really broad, but like split screen hooks, um, we're just like a vertical split screen. I think our eyes are just getting so used to so many different like kinds of creatives that like, it's kind of like we're all like the iPad kid that just needs more stimulation. And so the split screen is working really well.
(01:55) Another thing going into Q4 is statics. I have brands where statics don't work for 10 months out of the year. And then November 1st hits and all of a sudden the ugliest Canva graphic ever starts working. So definitely don't sleep on your statics.
(02:09) And like, I think a lot of times we try to get really cute and trendy with our creatives and do it a day in the life, but like a day in the life when the product's not featured until 20 seconds is never going to work. And now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast. All right. Welcome to episode 17 of a scalability school podcast.
(02:37) Uh, we are very happy to have incredible advertiser, long time, Foxville digital colleague of mine. Used to work with Courtney back at the grand old Opry Ryman hospitality properties. I mean, it was the good old days. And I remember saying to Courtney many years ago, if you ever decide to do your own thing, let me know because I 100% want to work with you. And we've worked together for, I think seven years now, some crazy amount of time.
(02:59) And that surpasses the six years that I always tell people I've worked with Shane, which in reality, it's like 12. So you've surpassed. First started saying that. And then you like forgot to add on the years. Exactly. Yeah. Um, but Courtney, you involved in so many things.
(03:19) I have, I could do a really long intro, which I won't do, but things generally function at Foxville digital and in the founders membership in part because of Courtney, so thank you for all that you do for us and thank you for being here. Courtney explain to the audience of the tens of listeners that we have a scalability school, what you do. I do a lot of things. Anytime I have a like intro call and I try to explain it, people are just like.
(03:39) What? So, so for one, I work with Andrew at Foxville digital help run the Foxville founders community. I'm like reading through all of the messages, helping parse through them, helping answer, directing members to answers, hopefully explaining some of the nuance. So I am a, I would consider myself a community manager of the Foxville founders.
(03:58) I also have my own, um, ad buying shop. I call myself an agency, but that's just for the sake of the IRS so that it's an LLC company, it's just me. And I do ad buying and creative strategy for e-commerce brands ranging of all sizes. So I'm also the leader of the small spenders cohort call on a for the founders. And so I have clients that spend 3k a month.
(04:19) I also have a client that'll be spending 900k this December in a month. So super wide range, which is really fun for me. And I really enjoy having that range. And then I also do creative strategy. So for most of my clients, I do like the ad buying and the creative strategy. Did you see creator sourcing? So I kind of have that like weird niche middle ground of understanding and doing the ad buying while also understanding and doing the creative sourcing just because they go so hand in hand.
(04:51) Um, but I keep my client list small so that I can do both. Um, that's just kind of my brain loves having like the sciencey, nerdy ad buying and the artsy, what if this is really fun and intangible creative. And so I kind of live in that middle ground. Yeah. And you've been a huge part of helping us launch, uh, the hive house creator community for creators and for brands that connect with creators, if houseugc.
(05:15) com just a little plug. Also Brad is on this episode. We invited him, I guess. I don't even know. I just showed up. Barge then Barge then this episode is brought to you by our friends over at Northbeam, the marketing attribution platform that a lot of us that listen to scalability school and the host of scalability school, you know, we swear by and use Northbeam rolled out something brand new that I think is pretty awesome.
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(06:55) io forward slash demo to book a walkthrough and tell them we at scalability school. Brad, Brad has a question right away. Brad, go ahead and let's get, let's get going. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that there was no way that any of us could pre-prepare for this because it's really important.
(07:12) Courtney, this is actually isn't for you because I know you are capable of trading and have created several ads that you've been featured in that have spent hundreds, if not maybe millions of dollars. I don't know what the upper, upper threshold is, but you're a star in, in several banger UGC ads and that's not even counting the ones that you scripted. And I can also say that I've been in ads that I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. So my question is actually, Andrew.
(07:31) Have you ever been featured or created an ad that has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on meta? You know, I have, I have created them. Yes. We had a, one of the most famous examples was we had a client that had a, had a bracelet set for Christmas and we did the classic thing where we got all this holiday creative together. This is many years ago and we launched it and it all totally bombed and we should have just kept the same stuff going that we do all the time.
(07:58) And so I was at my in-laws and took a photo with my iPhone of the set sitting on the table and that ad helped them generate like a four X ROAS through Q4 at like some crazy, I don't even know, we spent, you know, probably a million bucks. So I've been it, but I've never been featured. You know, I've never, I've never taken it online. I used to act when I was a kid. So, you know, Brad and I do, Andrew's not doing the face.
(08:22) Yeah. I could, I could probably do it, but nobody's been like, you know, Andrew, look at, you're so, you're such a good looking guy. We need you to be talking about products. Everyone's like, you know what? Why don't you get you rid of your face on the lander? What if we put like, uh, people in a meeting on that image? Yeah. So no, I haven't, but that's, I mean, you guys are both stars.
(08:43) You know, there's a lot that we can get into here. Obviously Courtney, you've done a ton on creative and that's really, I think where, where you shine, especially now. So, you know, we went through and kind of wanted to bring together, uh, I don't know, there's some questions that I think would be helpful for folks.
(09:05) So what are three specific creative styles or hooks brands can steal and run tomorrow that are working right now in your opinion? Yeah. So going into Q4 is kind of where my brain goes and like, that's everything. That's I'm sure in all of our minds, right. This moment is like planning, prepping, how can we get all that creative for holiday season, higher intent, gifting products, those types of things.
(09:28) For one, this is, can, this could actually be really broad, but like split screen hooks, um, where it's just like a vertical split screen. I think our eyes are just getting so used to so many different like kinds of creatives that like, it's kind of like we're all like the iPad kid that just needs more stimulation. And so the split screen is working really well. Another thing going into Q4 is statics. I have brands where statics don't work for 10 months out of the year.
(09:46) And then November 1st hits. And all of a sudden the ugliest Canva graphic ever starts working. So definitely don't sleep on your statics and like, don't take yourself so seriously. Like sometimes I hire a designer just for the sake of having a designer that can like see if something looks right.
(10:06) But I have a brand right now that's running that prime day deal and it is the ugliest Canva graphic ever. I made it two years ago, but I bring it back for every sale and this freaking graphic keeps working and it's so ugly. And I apologize to the client, but it's at like a five X ROAS. And it just works. So not necessarily saying the uglier, the better, but like the clearer, the better.
(10:24) Um, and like bright colors. So like during the prime day sales, I have like a blue and yellow. So it's like a blue, black, that blue background and a yellow text. But then come black Friday, I have a black graphic with red text and it's like those colors just pop. And then another one is like, don't be afraid to just be clear that this is an ad.
(10:45) I think a lot of times we try to get really cute and trendy. With our creatives and do a day in the life, but like a day in the life when the product's not featured until 20 seconds is never going to work. I recently paid a thousand dollars for a creator. She did a day in the life. Get ready with me. Product wasn't introed until 23 seconds. And I was like, let's test it.
(11:04) Maybe absolutely. No, like I know it didn't work at all. So, but then I have an ad for another brand that's been working for two and a half years. I just recently got a remade with the exact same script and a different creator. Creator was Mariah working again. So wonderful. And it's just, this is the product.
(11:22) This is how you use it. This is why I love it. This is an ad and that's okay. And I think especially going into Q4, we know as users on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok platforms, we know there are ads, there are paid and unpaid ads. There's whitelisting like we know this. So I don't think you just tell me, Hey, this is a cool product.
(11:45) Check it out and like not get so cutesy and like the sooner that you can get to the point, the sooner you can enter the product, the sooner that you can make sure that you have the right customer watching the better, like the, that best ad that I was just talking about that worked for literally two and a half years, spent $600,000. It just says, Hey, this is the product. This is what it is. But it has like a 20% hook rate, like thumbstop, which is not great.
(12:05) Generally we want like 40 to 60, but it weeds out the people who don't give a shit. And then it keeps the people who do care and the conversion rate is that much higher. So like, don't be afraid to just be like, Hey bro, this is an ad. This is the product. Do you like it? And like, that's okay. Yeah.
(12:24) It's so funny you say that I wrote this writing stuff down as you were saying all these things and I have a few questions to come back on, but the thing that you just landed on, which was like, it just, it just immediately tells people what it is. We have a client that sells candy and they come out with a holiday box every single year and we, I think I may have told this story before, but last year I saw the founder posted on his Instagram story, a video of, and I was like, can you send me those? Like, I just want to use those as ads.
(12:45) And I sent it over to somebody on our team and we accidentally uploaded the second story first instead of like meshing it together and putting it in order. And it ended up being the top spending ad and he likes the video starts with him holding up the box and saying it's $50.
(13:01) He's still talking from the previous slide, but he's like, it's $50, whatever, whatever, and it was just really interesting that he's like, got straight to the point. It's like, okay, it immediately weeds out if somebody's not willing to spend $50 on a candy holiday box and then it shows it off any standing in a warehouse, which was, which was I think really compelling. So yeah, no, that's really interesting.
(13:19) You mentioned, you mentioned ugly ads and like you said, sometimes the uglier, the better. I just, every time I hear ugly ads in reference to it, Barry hot's probably like twitching somewhere. He just like it's a, it gets a twinge in his brain every time somebody references that. Anyways, I do have some real questions that I'm curious about. So you mentioned statics.
(13:36) It sounded like you were mentioning, you're kind of referencing like graphics specific statics. So like those really compelling colors, especially Q4, like straight into the point, it says what the discount is. Leave no room for confusion there. Have you seen, have you seen like organic looking Instagram story as kind of like, I took a photo, I'm holding the product in my hand and I'm just using Instagram story fonts.
(13:59) Like what other, what other types of statics have you done that are maybe like low lift, but have been pretty impactful? I mean, Andrew, the story that you told was like an example of this, but any other like static stuff specifically that works? Yeah, still the, like the TikTok comment response or like the Instagram like question response overlay, whether you just screenshot someone that actually did that, or you like make it in Photoshop with a template or Canva or whatever, those work great. And I think it's okay for it to like just say, be like, Hey, here's the product.
(14:27) Like that's okay. I had one static recently that worked well. And it was, had, it was for like a, well, you guys probably know the product, but it's for an after alcohol drinking vitamin. Um, and like it had the Instagram font of like the time on it. And it was like 6am or 7am kid's soccer practice.
(14:48) And I'm fine after last night's martini or whatever, but it was like the, the Instagram font time, which I think really made sense. And so it's just like, I think a lot of this is like, not everything is going to be copy and paste for every brand, but like, just put yourself in the shoes of like your customer. And like a lot of times, like people will, you know, go on like their social media, you know, sabbatical, they go off of it.
(15:06) And I'm like, but I get some of my best ideas from scrolling Instagram. And I kind of like make a point to do that. And I use foreplay and I just, I can DM my foreplay DM with ideas that I like. And I know that I'm getting a lot of 30 something white millennial female targeted ads, but also the 30 something white millennial females are the ones that are buying a lot of shit. So also I'm like, well, that's okay. Yeah. Like just scroll.
(15:31) And then like, anytime that I see an ad that I like or don't like, or anytime that I buy something off of an ad, I automatically send that to my foreplay board because I'm like, I immediately put myself in the mind of the marketer, Courtney, and I'm like, why did I like this? Why did I click on it? Why do it, why am I not the person at all that wants to buy this, but I still clicked on it. Why? And just asking those questions. I think too many of us get caught up in the, you know, the, what everyone
(15:58) is saying on Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever, and we're, we want to do what everyone else is doing. And it's like, I, it's nice to have help in the space and have conversation, but also just like ask yourself, what do I buy? Why am I clicking on it? Why was this interesting? Why did my eyes immediately go to that comment box? And then like think as a marketer, even while you're the consumer.
(16:24) Yeah. I got got by a metal Packers sign the other day, a classic, classic UGC founder warehouse ad, same thing like every time. Right. He's like, look, we make these right here in the United States. That's really what made me buy. I was like, look, I love America. So I'm in. So, so I think, you know, Courtney, a lot of right now there's this huge shift that's happening in reference to moving to partnership ads, you know, creators are becoming a massive part of this meta set as much. We're going to continue to do this. And then, you know, we're recording this in early October and, and, um, the news
(17:00) that came out this week or that's been a big discussion point this week is different variants on small changes within iterations. They're read as the same thing by Andromeda, largely. Okay. So when you are, let's say that you go in and look at an account, I think there's probably people listening to this who have an issue with their, their account. They don't know what, how to diagnose it.
(17:22) And we've talked about in this podcast, how a lot of it is speaking to different personas, having a better offer or changing the offer, innovating on product and obviously creative diversity to a larger. When you're looking at an account and it's tanking or it's not doing well, how do you diagnose if it's like the creator, the script, the offer quickly? Yeah. I think it's, it's very rarely going to be only one thing and exclusively 100% that one thing.
(17:51) And I think a lot of like in marketing, it's a lot of, it depends and it's a lot of multiple things. There's lots and lots of variables. I would say, I mean, I think it depends on like the account size, the account, like previous data, how it normally spends when things normally fatigue. It depends if like the offer is proven. It depends on like macro factors.
(18:12) Are people buying right now? Is it a Christmas product, but we're in October and people aren't ready to buy yet. Is it a swimsuit and we're going into winter and people aren't ready to buy it. So I think there's like so many factors, but if everything else is like pretty similar, I will start to look at the soft metrics and figure out like when people are, if it's a video, when people are dropping off.
(18:37) So like wherever they drop off two seconds before that must have been not applicable, boring, confusing something. You can also look at like historical trends. I like to look at a lot of line graphs and that tells me a lot of like what's happening over time, whether it's conversion rate, whether it's purchases, whether it's like thumbstop, whether it's so many things. And that helps me see like fatigue. And so it's really, it's not one metric.
(18:57) It's kind of like, I think what makes like, I don't want to say like a unicorn of a creative strategist because unicorn is like kind of a red flag, but like what makes a good creative strategist is being able to look at 12 different metrics and like come up with a story out of those things, because it's not, like I said, the one really good ad kind of 20% thumbstop. That's really not great.
(19:21) But it performed so well that I'm like, I don't mind that the thumbstop is bad because everything else was so good. So I think it's more of like looking at all of the metrics, soft and hard metrics as a story, as all of it says a paragraph or a five paragraphs. Like all of it is telling us something. And then it's like, it's our job to like figure out what that is. I don't necessarily think that it could be the creator, but like part of my job when I hire UGC creators is do I trust this person? If they were FaceTiming with me, am I getting like bullshit flags or like, do I feel like I'm like, Oh my gosh, girlie, I'd love to be your friend.
(19:57) You know? And so it's like a lot of it is like that intangible of, you know, unfortunately I've worked with creators or I've been given their portfolios and I'm like, man, I am not buying anything that you're saying in your portfolio. And honestly, I don't even know how to tell you to fix it.
(20:18) And I should because I also work with a lot of UGC creators, but sometimes I'm like, man, she sounds like, or he sounds like they were paid to say this. And some people I'm like, Ooh, yes. And you can, you can tell that, right? Like it's totally true. It's totally true. I mean, I think to your point, right? I think it's a looking at, looking at a lot of different metrics and determining like over time where things are dropping off and where the consumer is becoming irrelevant, you saying this makes me think about within the creator world. And so let's say that you go through and find out that it's, you know, there
(20:50) needs to be more diversity in reference to different creators. How do you match creators to brand? That's like beyond looking, looking at like they're in our niche. Like you're looking for that authenticity.
(21:08) You're meeting them, right? You're, you're like just at a gut level being like, does this feel real? Like what other things are you? I mean, obviously maybe past performance as well. Them, them taking themselves not as seriously. I feel like sometimes for me, somebody comes in guns blazing. They're like, yeah, I have, you know, I don't know.
(21:27) I've done stuff with Adidas or like they lead with like big, you know, you're like, okay, I understand that's cool. But like, I don't know. What are the things you look for to make sure that process goes better? Yeah. Um, I'm not gonna lie to you. If I see a UGC creators portfolio and it has, it leads with the brands they've worked with and then the case studies, I bypass that completely because I don't care, I don't care what brands you've worked with and I don't care about the performance until I care about your content. And so like for me and my, cause I also do UGC in my portfolio, my case studies
(21:56) are at the very, very bottom because me as a person who is hiring creators. I don't really care about your data until I'm like, well, I like this. How did it perform? I think honestly what most of it is just that gut feeling and that authenticity, which is like really hard to teach, but I think it comes with reps, but I'll, I will look at a creative portfolio.
(22:17) I generally will try to look at a video that is somewhat near the niche of the brand that I'm trying to hire for like kitchen products or kids products in general, I don't really care if they're in the niche. I just kind of care.
(22:32) Like, is there something that's like nearby it in terms of like, whether they're in the niche, it's like, do you have kids? It's a kids brand need that. Do you have a spouse who's or partner or friend who's willing to be the spouse partner or whatever in this content? Cause it's a couple's content or, you know, are you, it's for an athletic company. Do you look like you could run a mile? Cause some people don't look like they could run a mile and that's okay.
(22:52) And so I think part of it is do they look the part? I don't really care if they actually do, but like, do they look the part? And then it's just a gut feeling of like, when I watch the video, sometimes I only make it to 12 seconds in, sometimes I make it all the way through. Sometimes I only listen to three seconds and I'm like, no, I don't trust your voice.
(23:09) And I don't even know how to like explain that, but a lot of it is just a gut feeling of does this person like radiate authenticity? And is this someone that like I'm picking up what they're putting down? And so unfortunately a lot of it's intangibles, but the more that you do it and the more that you compare performance to UGC creators, the more that you can pick up on what's going to work and having a better guesstimate of this creator is really awesome. I think they're going to do amazing and they just have it. It's like this like magic piece of something, just this like UGC magic.
(23:40) And like, you just know. And then most of the time, many, many times it's right. Cause they just have it and it's hard to, it's hard to pinpoint that, but the ones that have it had it. Is there, I mean, you're in a unique position where you, you are both a content creator, you kind of use the term unicorn and you sound gave you, a little bit of ick, but I'm going to throw it back at you. And maybe, maybe you are the unicorn here because you do create content. You're doing creative strategy and you understand the media buying what like
(24:08) that's a, that's a really unique lens. So like given that context, like what, what are creators not understanding about like, what are there some things that just like stand out to you? Creators don't understand about what happens on the media buying side. Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
(24:27) I think creators don't understand the algorithm and not that I do either, but there's been plenty of times where I get an ad and I'm like, this is great. I love it. It's so wonderful. We've talked about this in Hype House cohort calls. This is amazing. I put it in the account and it spends $2. And then I'm like, weird algorithm must not let it let me for spend. And then it spends a hundred dollars and has not a single ad to cart. And I'm like, it's such a good ad.
(24:50) Why is this not working? And it's frustrating as a media buyer and it's frustrating as a creator, whenever they reach back out and they want performance data and you're like, it spent $200 didn't get a single purchase. And so I had to turn it off or it spent $60 and I can't for spend there because it's not working.
(25:08) And I think that's something that. Doesn't really make sense as a media buyer. We know like there's the algorithm and it's just this thing that's there. And we have to work around it.
(25:28) I was explaining the algorithm to a client yesterday and I was explaining the algorithm is kind of like a toddler and you kind of let them do their thing and you let them kind of navigate their way through life until they're going to like break their head open. And then you kind of like push them back in as a parent and you kind of be like, nope, we're going to go this way. And the algorithm is kind of that way where it's like you let it kind of do its thing until it's going to go way off the deep end.
(25:47) And then you kind of like correct it with like a forced something, whether that's one single creative in an ad set, whether it's changing it from campaign budget optimization to ad set budget optimization, whether it's something like that. But I think creators a lot of times just don't understand like, well, why didn't my ad get spent? Like it's a good ad. Why did it not get spent? And that's something where it's like, you know, as an ad buyer, I know, okay, I need to make I need to make some changes. Let me make some pretty big swing changes because I think the magic sauce is there.
(26:12) It's just like hidden under like it's like hidden under like the Big Mac bun. But like the special sauce is there. You just kind of have to like dig a little deeper. I'm a really big fan of like metaphors and like visual things. But yeah, I think the algorithm and like I'll say over and over again, like the best creatives serve two masters, the algorithm and the consumer.
(26:31) And they have to serve both. You can't have a very winning super creative without both of those things. And the algorithm is just such a wizard behind the curtain black box. But like once it once the algorithm is unlocked, it's unlocked, but it's hard to get there. And maybe for a creator, that means offering a re-edit.
(26:48) Maybe it means offering a very different hook. Maybe it means offering a free month of whitelisting because it didn't work, but we wanted it to. Maybe it means having a meeting with the brand and being like, what can we do differently? What was working in the past? What could we kind of change up? What else are you seeing work right now? Here's something that I'm seeing work.
(27:06) Could we mash this up and make it different? So many creators are just like one and done. Here's the content. But like the algorithm is just this nasty, I don't know, black box of smoke that we're all just trying to figure out.
(27:24) It's funny that you say that because I mean, I think everybody's probably been in a situation where they feel like I'm about to load in this ad that is just going to make me so much money. Like I'm so pumped to do it. And then you do it and you're like, shit, it didn't do anything. But like, it's not every time, but I feel like going back and then you watch it again and you're like, OK, there's something that is off about this.
(27:42) Like the hook is missing this piece. I just compared it to somebody that did spend a ton. And you know, it says these three things in this order. And we maybe did this slightly out of order. We missed one of those things. And I feel like hindsight is always 20 20, obviously.
(27:55) But like rewatching it back, you realize, OK, there is actually something tangible I can take away. Maybe I don't have a ton of like thumbs up and click the rate data that I can go off of. But I feel like everybody kind of has a hunch as like why it didn't end up working. So to your point, like you can go and revisit it with some of those assumptions and then just try again.
(28:12) And like, for better or worse, like that's the state that we're in where it's like, creative volume matters. So just get back on the horse and give it another shot. That's like the super winning creatives that I've had. I have like three case studies where like the account just could not spend enough on this ad because it was just doing so well. None of those I went into saying, oh, this is going to be a big winner.
(28:32) None of them. They were all just like, no, I think it's a good ad. We're going to try it. And then when you look at it after the fact, it's like, oh, this worked. This worked. This worked. There was a magic sauce of XYZ. It did well organically, whatever. After the fact, it's like, oh, look, I know exactly why this worked.
(28:51) But like you can't when I always laugh when a client says, can you make this go viral? And I'm like, absolutely not. No, because it's so dare I say random of what does work. But that's why creative volume is important. But I would just caveat that with like, while creative volume is important, I will put quality above quantity all day, every day for the rest of my life. So here's the thing. Let's talk about like, you know, you can unit economics of this.
(29:14) According to you have an MBA, Brad and I don't because we're dumb. So what content, what should content actually cost at different scales? And when are brands overpaying versus getting a steal? That's a great question. Honestly, I would say from the brand side, having to pay ongoing any sort of like rev share usage rights, not inclusive of whitelisting. And even if it makes logistics difficult, hard no go for me.
(29:40) Like if I'm paying you to make the content, I'm not paying you to use it. I told somebody one time, what am I going to do? I said at home and cuddle it. No, I need to use it as an ad. Like I don't, I don't, I'm not going to pay usage rights. So that's like a hill that I will die on. Some people will charge it and I just say, best of luck. I'm not doing that. And sometimes they'll be like, Oh, okay.
(29:58) Now whitelisting is a different, different story because you are using their name, image, handle likeness. I understand that. And that's fine, but just for my usage rights perspective, but in terms of like paying for the content, I mean, the bigger the brand, the more you could pay. However, I don't think a single piece of UGC is worth more than six, $700 from the brand's account, again, not whitelisting. Um, it's just, it's hard to make those numbers work and hit rate nowadays.
(30:26) Average is so low that like, I recently paid a thousand dollars for a piece of content, the content completely flopped. Didn't work. I told the story. This is a different piece of content and I can use it for a year. And it spent $270 without a single purchase. And I'm like, cool. That was a loss for me. So I would say generally like 250 to 500 is my sweet spot.
(30:51) I'll go a little over that. Um, I'll also go over that. If the creator is proven for that specific brand, if I'm like this creator just like has that magic sauce for this audience, but in term, even like if I were to use that same creator for a different brand, they may not resonate with that audience.
(31:15) So I would say max $500 no matter what, whether that's a 3k a month spending brand or for my million dollar a month spending brand, $500 is kind of as much as I'm willing to do for use or for like the act, just the content by itself and running it as an ad from the brand account, just because it's, it's not worth it and like the, the hit rate is not going to match it if you pay more than that.
(31:35) What do you get? What do you get for the 500? Like what is the actual deliverable? And I have like many follows to that, but I'm just curious. That would be like edited video. Normally I would say like edited video with and without text on screen.
(31:50) So whether that's subtitles or like headlines or something, I do just like one nine by 16 vertical video with like a safe zone in the middle. So like I'm not resizing it. So edited video. I also offer all of my raw e-roll with it because I already shot it and you can use it to re-edit it and I'm not charging usage rights. So one edited video, one hook, one call to action, raw B roll if you want it.
(32:09) And my follow-up question was actually going to be somewhat adjacent to the B roll thing. I mean, just like to contrast similar, like with the creators that we work with, we try, we've tried recently to like script it in a way where we can make the content that's being shot go further. Like it fits better into a mashup with other creators content.
(32:29) It can be used with maybe some AI voiceovers if it's not including like the creator's face and stuff in it. Right. Cause we don't want to, you know, we're not trying to take advantage of people. We're just trying to make the content go a little bit further with maybe some of the B roll. So it's really interesting that you also just like include it, but noted on the deliverable, so brands should expect like maybe three to $500 range.
(32:43) They can get like a fully edited video. Are you scripting it out with that too? Are they giving you the full idea? They're giving you kind of a loose idea and you're doing it like how, how do you get to the end, the end output? Yeah. Every brand is a little different. And some brands have higher brand standards or like brand guidelines and others. I prefer to script myself anytime that someone else scripts for me.
(33:04) It's like no offense to anyone who's ever scripted for me. It sounds dumb and I can't say it and I'm not an actor and I can't remember a very specific line. If you tell me, Hey, talk about this water bottle and how it's purple and how it. Whatever is stainless steel. I can, I can do that.
(33:23) But if you tell me to say something verbatim, I'm either going to record it as a voiceover while I read the script, or I'm going to have to cut it up into multiple clips because not an actor. I'm a creator. And so I prefer scripting myself. I think too, there's a, there's a overlap between UGC creator and creative strategist, but if I'm paying a creator $500, they better be scripting it themselves in order to make it sound authentic.
(33:48) I think the more that a creator can script it themselves, the more authentic it's going to be. I'm not, if I'm, I always try to tell people, I thought your face timing, your sister, your brother, your mom, your best friend, talk to, talk to the camera. Like it's a normal person, but I can't do that if I'm like remembering a script. Cause again, not an actor. There's two creators that I work with that are actors that I do script for because I know they're an actor and I know that they need a script and they remember those lines verbatim every time. So that's like the exception. But as a creator, I prefer to both give and get as a creator, just like
(34:18) bullet point talking points of like, this is the gist of the video. This is kind of what we're trying to come up with. Here's the talking points of like kind of what we're thinking. Have at it. What do you think? I just think it's so much more authentic.
(34:34) If I can say things the way that I communicate without saying any sort of like regional isms or anything, like I try to be very, you know, normal. But if I have to say something specifically, it comes off as like, this person sounds dumb every time when I try to do it. Yeah.
(34:51) We, one of the things I wanted to ask you is what are the top three things that brands do that kill creator performance? And this is one, right? Like I think being very rigid in terms of what you're looking for is one of them, are there two others that, that brands do often that hurt creator performance in your opinion? I would, my other one that I had in my mind was like making it hard to connect to them technically, like making that a mess.
(35:10) I don't know what else do you think? Um, yeah, definitely like the rigidity of like a script, which some brands have to, if they have any sort of like compliance or anything like that, just as part of the nature of it. So, but like the more rigid they are, the worse it is.
(35:25) Um, I, I really try as a creative sorcerer to, um, send the product to people who would actually like it. So if it's like a diaper bag, I'm going to send it to a mom who has a real kid, whether the kid's in it or not, maybe, maybe not depends on the script. But I, if I have time, I will say, please use the product for a few days. And tell me what you think. And then I'll give them talking points, but I also like let them use it.
(35:44) Whether they're going to actually use the product and change out their real diaper bag, I don't really care, but use it for a few days and tell me what you think and also like maybe get some B roll while you go to target or the grocery store or the park or whatever, just like being more real. So like the scripting also like the rigidity of, of a brief of like, you have to get a shot in the car, in the backyard, in the city, going to a coffee shop.
(36:08) No creator like wants to do that work and turn that around quickly. And then, and then there's also the logistics of like, okay, well, if I go to a coffee shop, but I need to film this purse, then I need someone to go with me because I need them to film it. I'm not going to put my phone on the sidewalk in the middle of a busy city. So I think like the rigidity of like, of, of the shot list.
(36:28) Um, I think honestly, all of these things are going to be rigidity. Also like rigidity of make this exact creative from somebody else, or here's this exact script from something else that worked because it worked for one creator, it may not sound authentic for every creator, but like, in my opinion, that here's my hot take for the day. That's a lazy creative strategist to send the same brief to multiple creators.
(36:51) Even if it works, customize it to the creator. Like I all the time will hire a creator and they're like, okay, what's, I can't give you a price. I need the brief. And I'm like, well, I write the brief based on the creator. I hire a creator. I look at their portfolio, their Instagram, whatever.
(37:12) And I write a brief specific to Sally, John, Joe, whoever, based on other things that I've seen, I might even say, I love this video and this video in your portfolio. What if we did something kind of like that, but different. And so for me, I customize them to the creator. I think the more honest it is to the creator, the better it's going to come across, even if they're an amazing creator, if it's more, them, it's going to be better. Yeah. I mean, you're going to get a better outcome.
(37:35) Totally. I totally agree with you. I think so. So right now, the way that a lot of this is with brands is brands have the creator. They do, you know, some of them have internal departments. Some of them have, that's like a creator management part of it. If they're a really bigger brand, some of them, it's the founder and doing communication.
(37:58) Some of it's, you know, the media buyer doing communication. What if, if you were to help brands be more successful in utilizing creators? You know, we've talked about some of these things, but like what organizationally do you think brands need to understand and set up better? Is it that there needs to be a dedicated person for script writing? Is it that they shouldn't hire this as some contract position? Is it, you know, what, what is it that can make the workflow a lot better for everyone involved and to help that brand make more money utilizing creators?
(38:31) I think it depends and every brand is so different. It depends. Um, it also depends if the person, if the brand owner, um, if they enjoy the creative process, cause some people really do, and it's like this, like for me, it's like a, I don't need to do UGC. My main job is ad buying and creative strategy, but I take on two or three UGC projects a month because it's fun for me and it's an outlet.
(38:52) So I think it depends if like the person who's currently doing it, the brand owners, if they enjoy doing the creative and if they like watching it and they like that side of it, if they hate it, sure. Outsource it, hire somebody, do that. Um, in terms of organizationally, I mean an organization like Hivehouse would be great.
(39:13) We basically give you the easiest way to connect with tens or hundreds of creators or you just type in an opportunity channel. Hey, I need this. This is the concept I have in mind. This is the demographic I need. And you literally have creators like land in your threads of just telling you that when they have availability, this is my. Hivehouseugc.com. Hivehouseugc.com. Yes. So that's one thing that makes it way easier.
(39:33) I do a lot of like creator sourcing, but that takes a lot of time, whether you're doing it through like the meta creator marketplace, sometimes I just like scroll through Twitter, sometimes I just am like scrolling through Instagram. Sometimes I go to like competitor. Meta ads libraries or go to their website to get retarded with ads. And then I see who they're white listing with, but that can take a lot of time.
(39:55) So like an organization like Hivehouse, I don't know of any others besides Hivehouseugc, but I'm sure there could be maybe one day. Like getting organizing and like streamlining that process, like finding the right creator is really one of the hardest parts. So organizationally that could really help.
(40:15) Um, but I think it depends what they enjoy, what they like doing, what they don't like doing, but like if you hire a good creator, I've literally hired creators before and been like, this is kind of what I'm thinking. And it's like one sentence. My goal of this, this ad is to be, and that's it. And then if they're a good creator, they come up with it, but it's so authentic because I make sure that like they are the target audience or they are the person that the ad is, is depicting them to be. Um, so like as a brand owner, don't feel like you have to over complicate it.
(40:45) And also the things that a brand owner cares about might be different than the things that your customer cares about. So like I have a brand and the cut, the brand owners are like, you know, if this is how it's made, this is the type of. You know, whatever this is where it's sourced at. It's maybe it is made in the USA. Maybe it's all these other things.
(41:04) And they're talking about like the it's patented and this is how much, you know, we've sold 50,000, whatever. The consumer may not care. The consumer may not know what patented means. The consumer may not care that it's us made. Maybe they do.
(41:23) The consumer probably doesn't care that they've made 70 million in revenue and that they're in 85,000 stores. When most of them are regional and not available for me to purchase where I live in my little suburb. So I think a lot of times, like the things that brand owners care about may not be the same things that like an actual audience would care about.
(41:42) And so a creator can kind of help you bridge that gap of like, Hey, I know that you love your brand, but like consumers don't care that this is patented or that this was the way that you designed it. Now there's a whole side of creative that can be found or videos that can explain that, but once you're into creator UGC, talk about what the consumer actually cares about and maybe it is the price. Maybe it is that it's made with stainless steel and not aluminum or plastic.
(42:02) Like maybe they do care, but maybe they don't. And I think having that new perspective can be really, really helpful. Cause a lot of times we all get on our own little lanes of what we care about. And as a brand owner, I'm sure you're just like living, breathing, dying that product, but it can be really nice to get a second outside new fresh perspective.
(42:20) I even do that with brands that I do creative strategy for after a while, I can tend to get into this same rigid lane of like, these are the things that works. But then if I get a good creator, I'm like, here's the product. Here's like what I'm thinking in terms of talking points. What do you think? And getting that fresh perspective can be so, so helpful. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
(42:43) Where are brands and creators like going wrong? Not from like, I mean, you just listed out a bunch of things like related to rigidity, I think that's a, I think that's a great point. Um, and then also just getting stuck into what they think, as opposed to actually doing maybe their own research or getting somebody else to help them with the research, but maybe a pivot here is like, okay, there are like legal things to consider, whether it's with the creator directly or with what the creators are saying or like, uh, and I'm not asking you to be a play attorney for everybody here, but anything that that brand should be aware of on behalf or as they work with
(43:17) creators. Yeah. I'll preface this with not an attorney. Ask your attorney for legal advice. Courtney, it has. Hachibiti, an actual attorney. Yeah. Don't, uh, don't take what I say for granted, but whatever. Anyways, yes. Don't use copyrighted music. Full stop. Do not use copyrighted music.
(43:36) Even like stitching someone else's content can be not okay because you're not paying them for their content. Even like following trends can be a little sketchy just because you don't own the original and like how close you're willing to like fly to the sun is like some brands just aren't willing to do that. You know, risk tolerance, the bigger the brand, the more likely you are to get sued, the more that you're spending, the bigger the brand, the more likely someone from somewhere that is being copyrighted is more likely to see it. Don't touch anything Disney within a hundred foot pole.
(44:03) They will find you even if you are the tiniest creator in the world. I do not know this from personal experience, but I have heard of this. So don't do that. Create your own ideas. And that's where like trendy stuff generally doesn't work. There's always going to be a nuance.
(44:21) I had a brand years ago that had, they did an ad to like that corn meme that was going around for that summer. And that ad worked for like a year, even after that meme died. They shouldn't have done that. They should have been in trouble for copyright with that child. So, but like trendy stuff, 95% of the time is not going to work. Just come up with your own ideas and don't use copyrighted music. If you're going to use CapCut, use the commercial license.
(44:42) If you don't want to go buy something from bin sounds or whoever, but like even like for whitelisting, there's so many times that a creator influencer will use a copyrighted song. And then I go to whitelist it and then it says, you can't use this song. Pick a new one. I pick a new one. And then it goes over their voiceover. So it's just, it's such a mess.
(45:01) If as a creator, I usually will send like a, if they want music, I will send one version with audio voiceover, no music and one with music. But most of the time I don't include music unless they specifically say to you because I'm not trying to do music stuff. The, the labels and the publishers Warner brothers and Sony will get you every time. So don't do that.
(45:25) So number one, I always interrupt Courtney if everybody, anybody was listening to this at the end of her sentences, because I always get really excited to talk to Courtney. So Courtney, I perpetually apologize for the rest of my life for doing this. It's so excited about all the things that you're sharing.
(45:44) I'd like to bring us on to the end and kind of ending segment here that we like to go on, which is called beefs, which is we bring up like beefs of things and people, and you know, one thing that you've been very vocal about with me. And I think generally speaking is, you know, the media buying bro universe. You were going to say that. And, uh, I just wanted to like, you know, ask if you, if there's anything you want to say about the creator world or about the media buying bro or the brand owner bros or whatever, that you are like, Hey, wake up people.
(46:15) And that you feel like, picture, since Zach's not here, you can just picture him as you say all of this. Yeah, yeah, picture him. He's, he's the worst. Anything that you want to get out there. Cause I think your voice, you know, is really important and you, you have brought a lot of stuff to my attention that honestly is just like blind ignorance on my part and that's kind of inexcusable because I'm not thinking about it.
(46:33) So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to bring that up. Literally always. Um, thank you for giving me a platform to air all of my dirty laundry. One thing is like, as a female in this like predominantly male industry, females can feel a little silenced or feel overwhelmed. So like we recently started a women in marketing, um, channel in the founders community that Andrew is not allowed to be a part of.
(46:59) And I told him, no, he said, can I be in it? And I said, are you a woman? And he said, well, no. And I said, then no, I will tell you if you need to know anything. And it has been such wonderful conversation of females who just aren't comfortable saying this in a male dominated industry, because generally speaking, men are more confident. We know this men are also more willing to be a little confrontational.
(47:21) Whereas females are maybe a little bit less, um, less abrasive. They're less willing to take risks. We've had a lot of really, really good conversations. So if you are a female in marketing, like it's such a breath of fresh air. No offense. A little offense, but it's so, so refreshing.
(47:42) So that's one thing is like, also, if you're in the founders membership and you're not in that channel, DM me, I tried to add everyone that I could, but it's private, so I didn't even announce it. So it's kind of on the DL. So for our tens of listeners, here's your inside information. Nice. I love it.
(48:00) I think in general males are more likely to be louder in our industry and they're more likely to share trends and this like grow in public type thing. And in my experience, I, I don't, I don't grow in public. I don't share a lot of what's working because there are so many nuances and there's so many statements of it depends. And I think men in the industry generally are likely to, or more likely to generalize, Oh, this is working.
(48:27) Whereas females are more like, no, it's, it's not working yet. It's not at scale. And it's maybe a confidence issue, which is I, I get it's a lot of imposter syndrome. But in my opinion, my beef with marketing bros is like, get off Twitter and get off LinkedIn and go work because I can't be managing my accounts and doing a good job for my clients, if I'm always over here trying to get retweets or re X's or whatever they're called now, and I know this is going to be a really hot take for a lot of people listening, but like my clients, they'll be like, Oh, I saw this on Twitter.
(48:59) Did you hear this? I heard this person talk at a recent conference. Here's everything they said. Why aren't we doing that? And I will like one turn red, but I also will be like there. This person has one way of doing things male, one way of doing things. And in marketing, there is so much nuance. Every single account is so, so different.
(49:25) And I think it's men are more likely generally to just be like, this is the way to do it. I've even had brands that I'm managing founders, owners, clients, agencies, whoever take like a case study of mine post about it publicly. And it's not actually correct. And I'm like, that's, that's puffed up. That's beefed up because that's not true.
(49:47) That is not what happened. So I think as a takeaway is like what you see publicly, and this is for males or females. What you see publicly is probably not the real story. So when you take it to your ad buyer, your creative strategist, or you say, we want to make this because so-and-so said they got a six X ROAS. I guarantee you they didn't, but they're saying it because they want attention.
(50:09) And I think generally marketing bro beef is that generally marketing bros want attention. They want clout. They want impressions. They're looking at their analytics of their profiles. But I think just like a takeaway is like, don't always trust everything you see on the internet. We should know this by now. It's a stranger danger for the females out there.
(50:27) You might be doing better than you think. You're just not as loud. You're maybe maybe a little bit more honest and a little bit more nuanced and men are more likely to generalize. And I think in my opinion, that's what like this, like women's channel has been so great for is like being honest and saying like, this is actually what I'm seeing.
(50:46) Or someone sometimes people have posted, I was not comfortable posting this in this other channel because I thought I knew who was going to respond to it. And I didn't really want to hear from them.
(51:00) So what do you guys think? Or I even posted in there, I am the community manager of the Foxwell founders and there have been times that I say, I didn't want to post this. What do you guys think? And it's been such a nice, honest space. And so I think the more that men generally, the more that men can be a little bit less, you know, male peacock. Look at me and a little bit more honest and rant. I think a lot of what you said is really important for people to hear. And I am very appreciative of you sharing it.
(51:23) You know, you're somebody that I deeply respect and you never hold back in sharing your opinion in our relationship and in the business. And I think we've benefited from it. So I think it's a good thing. And I think it is something to be aware of. I mean, you know, I was thinking about last night so much of just how much the ego takes over, right? And in all this and how you just have to be really conscious of it.
(51:47) I mean, Zach put out a tweet the other day that was essentially like, keep doing good work, keep helping people. And just like I replied with a gif of like a dog just laying bricks, you know, like that's that's what I think good work comes down to. Right. It's just like doing good work over time, compounding on itself. So I appreciate you sharing that.
(52:11) How how do I mean, there's a ton that we didn't cover here, but how do people get a hold of you and what's the way that they can find out more about you and chatting with you? Yeah, the easiest way I'm going to respond is in the founders community. Fun Slack. So you got to join. Yeah. And then you can also email me, Courtney at AxiomMarketing.co.com. If you want to email me, I will respond quickly on email, but Slack on founders or an email.
(52:32) But feel free to tweet or LinkedIn me, but it's going to be a second to respond. Courtney, thank you for joining us today. Thank you guys so much. Thanks for having me. This episode is brought to you by Brad's company, Work Marketing. If you need a DTC marketing agency, let me tell you Homestead is great, but work marketing is also fantastic.
(52:58) And let me tell you, you aren't going to find friendlier people out there in the e-commerce space. So we decided to do these little ads for each other's companies. So hopefully you find it interesting, but seriously, great team at work marketing. Very smart. Brad and Jordan are incredibly dialed in. I just gave them a lead. Already made this brand that I gave them.
(53:19) Like, I don't even know, double, double revenue that they had the previous month or something. So, you know, it's very exciting to be connected with Brad. And if you need a great agency, there's really no one better. Zach, anything to comment on work marketing? Yeah. I mean, if you want an agency that cares about your business much more than they care about their own website, I just tried to load workmarketing.com and it was broken.
(53:41) So they're definitely going to give more of a shit about your business than their own. So I highly recommend Brad and the team over at work. They've been incredible. We've referred a lot of business over to them as well.
(53:54) Really, really good as far as like cracking funnels and figuring out like rapid growth for brands. So I recommend these guys. The only way that we grow this podcast is by you sharing it with your friends. Honestly, like reviews kind of don't really mean anything too much anymore. They're really meaningful, but they don't do a lot for the growth of the podcast. And so sharing YouTube links, sharing Spotify links, sharing Apple, whatever we call it under the podcast app now, anything you can share, the better we're going to be.
(54:27) Guys, anything else you want to say on this? Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube. Rack up those views for us. We'd love to see it. And then subscribe. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube as well. And I relentlessly refresh the YouTube comments because it dictates my mental health for the day. So please say something nice about all of us. Thank you, everyone. Thanks for listening, honestly.
