Creative Velocity And Systems With David Herrmann

May 22

In this episode of Scalability School (Episode 2), hosts Andrew Foxwell, Zach Stuck, and Brad Ploch welcome special guest David Herrmann to unpack how rapidly‐growing DTC brands build and scale their creative operations. They cover the decision points between hiring in-house talent versus partnering with agencies, the playbook for staffing roles as spend climbs, and the simple yet powerful “report card” framework David uses for measuring agency performance. Along the way, they dive into low-cost, high-impact content strategies, like leveraging TikTok Shop purely for authentic UGC and share battle-tested approaches for launching and managing creative tests at scale. Listeners finish armed with practical benchmarks, tools, and team structures to level up their creative machine.

Key Takeaways:

Who you should hire first when building your creative team
The ad-spend or revenue thresholds that make sense to move creative production in-house
What a simple “report card” for your agency can look like and how does it keep them honest
How you can tap TikTok Shop as a content source, even if it doesn’t drive direct sales
One of the most efficient ways to launch dozens of ad creative tests without getting overwhelmed
The specialized tools the guys use that can help you organize, track, and report on hundreds of ad variations

Motion is the creative strategy command center.

With Motion, creative strategists get help at every step of their workflow including visual analysis of top-performing ads, competitor tracking, research tools, and automated recommendations to help prioritize what to ship next.

Motion’s customers include some of the most prominent advertisers in paid social. Brands like HexClad, Vuori, True Classic, Jones Road Beauty, and Ridge use Motion to analyze over $11B in media spend every year.

Learn more about Motion

To connect with David Herrmann, send him a DM
To connect with Andrew Foxwell send an email
To connect with Brad Ploch send him a DM
To connect with Zach Stuck send him a DM
Learn More about the Foxwell Founders Community

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Full Transcript

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davidherrmann: Welcome to episode 2 of the Scalability School. Podcast I'm Andrew Foxwell, and I'm glad to be here with my friends, Dave Herman, Special Guest.

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Andrew Foxwell: Red lights. We're so happy to have you, and of course Zach and Brad are here with us as well. Fellas. What's up.

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Brad Ploch: It's not day.

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Zach Stuck: Was that a police chase reference? Is that what that was.

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Brad Ploch: Did you see how I did kind of.

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davidherrmann: I did like I.

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Andrew Foxwell: I think.

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davidherrmann: Got it pretty well right.

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Zach Stuck: Incredible, incredible.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, I don't. I don't know if you know. But la! Right now is the highest of police chases in the 1st quarter of any year in recorded history this year. So we've had a lot of good stuff.

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Brad Ploch: Well, we did tell you we were going to be talking about your tweets. We didn't say which one

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Brad Ploch: good news.

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Andrew Foxwell: Entire podcast about police, personal favorites.

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Andrew Foxwell: The thing that I can't, the thing that I have a really hard time with like, but also love is the like. The balls that some of these people have just.

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davidherrmann: Oh, my God!

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Andrew Foxwell: You know what like, I'm taking this 96 caravan.

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Andrew Foxwell: I'm freaking, going over the meeting, you know. And you're like, Wow, like, that's that's.

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davidherrmann: Why do you watch him?

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Andrew Foxwell: You know, that's bravery. Really.

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davidherrmann: I mean, you never know what you're gonna get. I mean, we've yes, terrible things happen that again. We don't talk about those, but like the ones where it's like no one gets hurt, but they do some damage to the city like, Hey, you know what like. Take out a couple of telephone poles. But there's cool like, Hey, it's drama. It's action. You don't need a movie just turn that.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, you know. So anyway.

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Andrew Foxwell: Well, the we're so glad to honestly be here to talk about with you. Creative velocity creative systems, you know. Obviously a hot topic. There's so many of us that I mean, we all have revolving discussions around us. I think, as always, our promise on this podcast is to share tactical, real shit that's happening that you're gonna be able to use and is

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Andrew Foxwell: our second thing is to, you know, to make it feel like you're just listening in a conversation with friends, not a lot of like podcast speak. And I don't know sort of the overproduced stuff that you hear

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Andrew Foxwell: in other places. So that's why we're here. So you know, David, we

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Andrew Foxwell: have a lot of things that we could talk about. One is is about the Tweet that you have

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Andrew Foxwell: talking about, and I'll read selection of this Tweet real briefly, which is

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Andrew Foxwell: this was from. Let's see, when was it from? Specifically, this is from January 28.th

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Andrew Foxwell: Diverse creative isn't ad headlines. It's concepts, carousel statics. It's mashups. It's funny, slash, serious. Content. It's tiktok style. Reply. It's founder led. It's everything and everything. Your feed shows you more is better. And you said I've explored brands, big and small. I've seen what works and doesn't

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Andrew Foxwell: you know. But this is really what moves scale for a lot of brands. You need your cost need to go into hiring creators agencies that can do this. And then people like, you know, producers and project managers who can work with strategists and media buyers to get what they need. On a regular basis, which you know, I think we really identified with this, because this is a like a huge part of our thesis. Of what we all believe, too, and how we've seen this work.

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Andrew Foxwell: So one creative, you know, I guess creative systems.

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Andrew Foxwell: what do yours look like, or what do you? What are the creative systems that you're privy to look like

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Andrew Foxwell: in a lot of these brands.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, I think it.

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davidherrmann: There's a similarities. And there's differences between all of them depending on a lot of things. But primarily the brands that

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davidherrmann: you know, are in sort of that 7 to 8 k. Or 7 to 8 mid range. I would say that what we find is twofold. One is a mix of creative outside creative agencies, and then a mix of in-house editors that can kind of take a lot of that that footage and

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davidherrmann: mash up and and do a bunch of different things with them. That's typically how we've seen it primarily work the best. There was a post I saw about like percentage of

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davidherrmann: your ad spend that's dedicated towards creative. I I honestly have never really looked at it that way. Personally, I've always got go for it.

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Zach Stuck: I'm curious. So a couple of things I think we should talk about like we're kind of jumping ahead. I know we have a few things that we wanted to ask you, David, but like

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Zach Stuck: one thing that I'd be really curious on is how you think about like the team, especially for like a 7, 8, 9 figure brand, like one thing that I've thought a lot about as we've started building the brands and the brands that outside of homestead is, how do I build the team? And what is like the best way to hire and like? Who do, I hire first? st So like I'll just share, really, briefly, like how I've thought about it. But I think that's so important because it's like, Do I go hire editors? I go hire creative strategist. I go hire ahead of something, or whatever right? So.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: I mean, I think, for us. I literally just started with a designer, because I'm like, statics are the easiest thing to do.

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Zach Stuck: We can pump out the most volume where it's gonna like roll with a designer to start. And that was our 1st year. We literally had a designer. We did. We had no editors besides utilizing Homestead and the team there, but like in house, that was all we had. Then we brought in like a head of creative strategy. And then that person brought in some editors. And then we could finally actually start like adding some video output internally. And now we're trying to really figure out and like, scale that up more. But I think, like we're getting the size now where it's like

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Zach Stuck: mid 8, figure brand, 9, figure brand kind of team. But I think the most important part is like how these 7 and 8 figure small 8 figure brands are building the team, figuring out who to hire versus agency like.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: What is the best playbook for that of like who they bring into the team.

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davidherrmann: So.

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Zach Stuck: What you've seen.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, so I'll I'll speak at least from our side of things. So one of the guys that works with me I kind of trained him. On creative strategy in house. I was like, we what we what ended up happening was, we come into these brands where you know it would just be like the operator, and maybe like

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davidherrmann: either a Cmo or somebody that nobody had time to focus on the creative. So we're just like, all right. We're just going to take that on. And what we did was, you know, we would just do these 2 week sprints like, we're not going to do creative strategy every single week. There's no reason to at that level of spend. It's it's every 2 week sprint. So that was number one, like having a creative strategist that came on board to help.

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davidherrmann: That was also just someone who lived in the account with me. And kind of saw the differences and what creative work, what didn't? Why, it worked. Whatnot but typically what I would always go is I would start with some type of video editor. That would take a lot of our existing footage. Either it be through an archive that app, or it would be taking you know, just like the the in-house teams. Just B roll footage

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davidherrmann: and just starting there. 1st 1st off like, that's what we would start with. And from there. We would go into the designer role. Which.

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davidherrmann: funny enough, it feels like it's kind of moving towards the AI route. In fact, I just got off a call with my my engineering friend who I'm like, hey? I sent him like a couple of those tweets that were going out, and I was like, how much would it cost us to build this internally? He's like I could do it for 5 K. And he's like, I'll do it for 5 k, like, okay?

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davidherrmann: And I'm like he's like ears paying for the Api token. That's it. So he literally is building it for me this weekend, because I'm like.

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Zach Stuck: Is this like an icon kind of type of thing like is that kind of what you're trying to do, or more like.

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davidherrmann: So I just like, I want to basically grab

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davidherrmann: my brand deck my brand guide and and have it own that particular process for that one client and and know this is the font. This is the text. This is the way that the text goes. Just basically tell it.

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davidherrmann: The Json of our brand. But do it in a way where editor, it's basically like it's my editor, and it knows everything. It knows the Brand Bible. And then, essentially like, I want to be able to input my top 10 best performing ads last week and have it make 10 new versions of that

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davidherrmann: right now, and that's what I'm having him build like, I kind of feel like it's a little bit. There's a lot seem like there's a lot more stuff going on over there. So like, I just want a bare bones thing that I can do just this. So he's building that for me. Yeah. So.

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Zach Stuck: So back to that. So you're like, okay, video editor, to start where you're basically

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Zach Stuck: video editor, ideally, you'd be able to like, are, you know, these brands are likely hiring someone like yourself, a freelancer, an agency that can help.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Briefing ideally. Now, I think from my perspective, if you're hiring someone to run your ad account, they should be helping brief, creative, let alone like help with this to some degree. So otherwise I think it's like, it's really hard for these brands to be able to afford even the freelancer if they're not helping with that component. So anyways, okay, that's.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Start. Then what's next?

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davidherrmann: So then, once we start to kind of crack that sort of like initial nugget of like, Hey, we're we're seeing concepts that work with this sort of mashups. Then we go to the next phase, which is, Hey, we actually need someone to film the content because it gets to a point that we've seen, especially when you're increasing. Spend that this is not going to be somebody that's usually

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davidherrmann: an in-house person. It's gonna probably be an agency. From my perspective. So what we'll do is we'll hire. I work with a bunch of different agencies. I work with one that's super nimble. That doesn't have like a flat price. It's like, Hey, they're just gonna work with me on.

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davidherrmann: I'll just basically say, here's what I need from you, and then they'll come back to me. It's like, all right, that'll be like 2 50, a video like, okay, you can do that. So then they'll go get the content from me, and we'll start there. That typically starts with a colleague of mine. His name's Joel.

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davidherrmann: He'll go out and get creator creators to go make content for us. And then part of that, we get white listing access to the Creator. But we also get their raw files. So what they'll do is they'll shoot the videos raw. They'll send them to us without any music on them, any text overlay. Just so we have that footage. So that's our initial sort of person.

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davidherrmann: and then that that kind of feeds the the the the in-house team to do that, the actual mashups then from there, if we're still seeing success, and things are moving in the right direction.

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davidherrmann: We typically will either bring in another agency that is kind of more, putting it together. Concepts kind of taking on that next role. We've worked with some brands I work with high scale that AI. They're they're sort of the sister company at tube science.

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davidherrmann: for like problem solution brands. They have been really good for me because the volume they put out they charge a percentage of spend model of 15%. And then it goes down to 12%. They've been really good for a brand that I work with. That does problem solution, that it's pretty easy to build.

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davidherrmann: and they're just all volume play right like they'll get me no joke 3 to 400 assets a month, and they'll all be different.

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davidherrmann: So that's.

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Zach Stuck: And so pretty impressive at what size? So like, if we're kind of talking right? I'm just gonna reel you back a bunch of these? Because I

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Zach Stuck: yeah, so

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Zach Stuck: curious on how you think, because I think we're trying to do this on our own. I think there's a bunch of their brand creators or brand owners are trying to do this at the same time. So you're hiring a video editor. You're hiring either like a freelancer or an agency to help kind of script. Get the initial ads rolling. You're likely starting with static some lightweight videos which are like you said, coming from archive coming from videos that they have coming from customer testimonials like lightweight or even lightweight. Ugc, 200 bucks, a video type of thing.

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davidherrmann: Yep, once you're finding winners, then you're starting to scale up the ad account. Maybe they're spending 10 KA day, 250 KA day at this point is that kind of the realm where then, you start to bring?

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davidherrmann: Yeah, yeah. So typically, yeah, if I'm if I'm cracking 8 to 10 KA day consistently profitable. And I'm talking like the things are moving in the right direction in a very positive way. I'll bring into like a high scale. It's like, okay, like, we're we need volume now to like, get this to the next level. I would not bring in a high scale. If you're

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davidherrmann: spending like 3 or 4 KA day like it just doesn't make sense like it really is when you're really finding product market fit on Meta. You kind of feel like, you know where things are heading. Bring in someone like that. That's just the volume play.

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davidherrmann: that's been my, that's sort of been like that next iteration from there when I find. So say, that's going well, right? So we're getting a performance agency here over here we're making sure the Ad. Naming conventions are tracking, so that you know that that agency is this, I always recommend having a table set up with each agency on how they're doing.

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davidherrmann: One thing I actually like to do is have a report card that I like to send back to different agencies at times for some brands that I work with. I'll actually send like a report. Hey? This agency is doing this. This agency is over here. Here's how. Here's how we should kind of

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davidherrmann: play a little bit of like. All right, let's get rid of these guys. They they just aren't hitting hitting what we need to, and we'll we'll put more in there. So that's that's sort of that initial phase

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davidherrmann: from there.

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davidherrmann: That's when I start going. Okay. The volume game is going well. But the thing that we're missing is that next level of content which is sort of the diversity because a high scale is going to get you a lot of sort of the same things right? That's like they're going to be really good at that. You got your Ugc. And then you got your sort of like your problem solution hook kind of videos. But that's that's not getting the sort of like.

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davidherrmann: hey, I want podcast ads, or I want street style interviews. Or I want this, this this. And then, oh, yeah, I also want some newer brand, heavy videos. That's when I actually will start going to different contractors that I know that can specialize in those things. And I'll be like, Hey.

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davidherrmann: I wanna get just a set 30 videos from you.

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davidherrmann: That's gonna cover

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davidherrmann: 3 months of advertising, right? Like, I'm just gonna do like that's just to get diversity in there without like overwhelming the account with 150 street street style interviews. It's like, all right, like there's 1 agency we work with that.

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davidherrmann: We'll get me 30 videos for like 3 K or 4 k, right? And it's like, it's all that kind of style. Video, it's like a little bit different.

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davidherrmann: If I put all those in the ad account. Like right away, it's just gonna overwhelm the ad account. So it's like, it's just a way for me to get product diversity in there.

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Zach Stuck: Yup. So okay.

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Zach Stuck: the way that I'm kind of like breaking this down is just by like daily spend or monthly spend. I think that's a very helpful way for a brand owner to be like. This is kind of where I slot myself in that and where I'm at now, and where I want to get to. So that's kind of like 250 KA month in ad spend on Meta. We're talking Meta for what it's worth in case like that wasn't clear kind of across the board. That's the majority of what we're likely talking about here

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Zach Stuck: all the way up to probably a million a month. Right? Is that kind of where.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: This playbook that you're saying, okay, now, let's add more diverse stuff. Let's get the podcast

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Zach Stuck: these people talking the street. Let's try some more Brand related. I honestly don't think we should talk much more beyond a million, because I think that.

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davidherrmann: No.

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Zach Stuck: People need more help on the honestly, even up to 250 KA month and spend 30 KA month to 250. I think a lot of these people that they're they're asking Andrew in his his membership and asking like people on Twitter, what do I do between 30 k. To scale up to, you know, 100 KA month, or 100 to 250. So I think, like I think we should break that down more, Andrew.

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Zach Stuck: I mean, like focus on that segment.

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Andrew Foxwell: One. The one thing one thing that I think is interesting. And, Dave, I'd be curious. Your opinion about this, or Brad even I'd I'd be curious. Your take is like

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Andrew Foxwell: thematically one piece that I'm hearing from a ton of agency owners and the founders membership about is

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Andrew Foxwell: about that 1st hire. So like they they've they have. You know, the the video editor right there, like a brand that's in house or an agency that's helping, you know, scale up the brand, and they generally then have more creative, and, like some of it, has diversity. Big air quotes of like what that means. But there seems to be 2 things that are happening. One is, there's disorganization in reference to

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Andrew Foxwell: what and why, in in like, you know, it's it's all it's like target practice, but it's like spray shooting like everywhere. And then the other one is like, there's not and so to me, I I feel like a a project manager, a deal oriented person

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Andrew Foxwell: is really almost like the higher that you want, and you can offshore some of these, you know, 2 or 3 video editors right in South America, or whatever. That seems to be a model that works better. If you have someone that's like able to master the organization of all of it with intention.

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Andrew Foxwell: cause. Otherwise. Yeah, so and I. So I know that's a problem like we don't have to talk about how? That's a problem, because everybody knows it's a problem so like, how do you address that Brad and Dave like, how would you? How do you guys see this being addressed properly, what? What's your.

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Brad Ploch: Yeah, I can quickly jump in. And yeah, I'm super. Curious what you have to say, Dave, on our end. The team structure just to start there looks like we. The progression was we started with the designer and the media buyers just like had to learn the creative chops, because over the last several years, it's become more and more apparent that we need diversity and scale of actual creative volume. And so for us, a few years ago, it looked like, okay, we have a handful of designers, and we have

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Brad Ploch: media buyers. And the media buyers just like have to figure it out over the last several years we've just continued to hire more of the creative strategy people that have basically enabled the media buyers to look in the account understand what's going on and then feed that to the creative strategist. Who, then, can help scale out those ideas? Because that's what they're doing all day is looking at this, concepting it, figuring out what is the direction that I should actually go from a messaging standpoint. And I think, like those people, just kind of help

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Brad Ploch: coordinate literally that entire process for us. So for us, it's yes, they're doing creative strategy. But they're also basically project managing everything from

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Brad Ploch: briefing through. It's go. It's ready to go in the ad account. That's what it looks like from our end. At least.

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Zach Stuck: They the ones giving feedback to the editors, and like the designers, then, that are making the assets. The creative strategists are.

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Brad Ploch: Yeah, if I did give like the exact workflow, it's basically like, I'll do it on a weekly basis, because I think that's the simplest version of it. But on a weekly basis the mediator buyer is basically saying, like like you said earlier, Dave, they're building it into a sprint of, I need this, this and this, and we can talk about how you define this, this and this, if that's helpful. But

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Brad Ploch: I need these couple of things in this direction. And I want to talk about these these different topics. The creative strategist is putting together a brief. The brief is going back to the media buyer saying, yes, looks good. That's going over to a designer. That designer produces. It goes to the creative strategist. Creative strategist says, looks good. This is what I wanted. Media buyer.

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Brad Ploch: are you pumped about this or not? And then over to the client and into the ad account? That's kind of the flow so yes.

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Brad Ploch: to answer your question, shouldn't it?

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davidherrmann: Yeah, yeah, I the way I like to look at it is

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davidherrmann: So the guy that I that is on my team. I like. He is not

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davidherrmann: a day to day. Media buyer he is. He's a he's. He has a creative background. He can pretty much shoot, content. He can. He has a music background like he's just kind of a creative person. And I just said him, I was like, look like

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davidherrmann: all these companies we work with, like, yeah, a lot of them have some type of a creative strategist person. But what I'm finding more and more is that the person who's actually running the ad account

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davidherrmann: and lives in it every day generally does better at knowing what to do next than even someone who's a creative strategist who's just looking at the creative because there's so many elements outside of just hey, this piece of creative worked and under and reading the underlying metrics. So what we did was he now basically lives with me in the ad accounts. And like he uploads the ads.

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davidherrmann: He, him and I talk about our decision making on day to day basis. And then what he does is he uses motion and builds out these different reports based on what what our objective is, and every every like. I, said he, he sends a a deck to the client either it be to the Cmo. To the agencies, or whoever it is. And we basically say, here's the videos that you did.

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davidherrmann: Here is the report card that we have on your assets. And then here's the direction we want you to go next, based on what we are seeing in the ad account. So, for example, if we start to see and I'm just gonna give you an example of this one we work with from one agent for one brand we work with. We have 5 different agencies. All 5 give us different styles of creative. None of them make the same style. One of them. Their only job is tick Tock

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davidherrmann: Tiktok Shop. They send all our content stuff to tiktok shops with the only we don't make money off tiktok shops. They don't. The brand does not make money because the the margins just aren't great.

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davidherrmann: We do it just to get the content. That's it. That's why we do it. And so that's their entire job is to get the most authentic type of content from these creators on Tiktok.

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davidherrmann: So that agency gives us anywhere from 75 to 140 ish videos per month of just people talking about our product. And however they want to talk about it all walks of life. We got young, old, you know. Woman, man, different different ethnicities. Just it's it's diverse, creative.

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davidherrmann: And so

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davidherrmann: what we do is we will. We have a strategy where every week we take a batch of their creative. We upload it and we'll upload it usually in our Abo creative testing ad sets. And then we will run that at the same time we'll run another agency that is only focused on a problem solution, hook, hook style video ad, and then we'll run those basically launch all at the same time same day.

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davidherrmann: and then each 2 week window, we'll go back and say, All right. Here's how each of them did. And then for the Tiktok people we approach them differently than we do the other agency. That isn't going to be able to do that kind of content, because that's not where their wheelhouse is. But we'll give everybody at the end of it. We'll always have key takeaways from all the creative. So it's like we found that this style person with this style that mentioned something with these 3 elements in it is really key to success. And the way we find that

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davidherrmann: is in the is in the naming conventions. Right? So people always laugh at my naming conventions, because sometimes, like our ad name is like.

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davidherrmann: this is like really long.

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Zach Stuck: Break you break the space that.

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Andrew Foxwell: Help on motion, though, to be honest.

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Andrew Foxwell: yeah, I mean, it makes it way easier. Yeah.

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davidherrmann: That's why we do it.

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Andrew Foxwell: And it's then it's.

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davidherrmann: Like.

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davidherrmann: yeah. So it's like, I'll have like, benefit. 1st problem first, st or I'll have like, video opens with talking head like it'll say, talking head or Pov. And so you're seeing all this stuff. And you're mapping out. Okay, this is actually working a lot better than I thought it did. So that's how we're going to mention it. And that's kind of how we're always doing the the data dumps. But the key thing that you have to just make sure you do. Is

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davidherrmann: you have to look back, too. So not just look at each 2 week window. You have to go back and look from 4 weeks ago, and see if there's any commonalities between those. And that's where I love using AI for.

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davidherrmann: So what I'll do is I'll actually dump that that doc in our AI like all right, can you start mapping this together and give me like what shifted week over the timeframe so that we can start to see. Has there been any shifts? Primarily there isn't like that's the thing it's like, if you're really dialed in and creative diversity, you'll see that your spend is is

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davidherrmann: is is going across multiple ad sets where you're having not just one ad dominate. You're having multiple ads dominate. And that's when you know things are moving in the right direction on creative diversity is, if you just have one ad in each ad set, or you launch a campaign an Asc campaign, and you have one ad get, you know, $10,000 a day and spend and everything else get 10 bucks like, well.

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davidherrmann: you're you're really not diverse at all. You, you, Meta, found one ad and just went with it. And that's when you like. That's when things actually get in trouble, because

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davidherrmann: once it add fatigue suddenly you're basically refreshing your your account again.

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Zach Stuck: So I I have to call it one thing that you said David, I think, is like very relevant especially for smaller brands, is.

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Zach Stuck: And this just happened to us internally, for one of the brands that we own is our Cs was basically giving the direction more than our head of growth was giving direction. Who's in the ad account? Pushing the deliveries? And what ended up happening is all of our ads started to look exactly the same like they just kept going in in in. And we're like, Hey, why is performance starting to fall off? Well, if you actually go look! All of the ads look

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Zach Stuck: fundamentally the same, we're using the same 3 hooks in headlines and statics that we're using in videos that we're using everything else. So yeah, once that starts to fall off. That's like a seasonal concept or a theme to that ad that starts to like taper.

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Zach Stuck: If if that's your whole leverage point you're doomed. So yeah, I think like the point of diversity name conventions is huge for us, like one thing that we started doing when we brought in our first, st like head of performance. Creative, was like basically naming every single batch, every single batch which goes out every week is the name of the creative strategist. And then there's like a batch number. So like the creative strategist initials, 0 0 1. So now we can literally look every week what was launched what was put into editing what was actually launched that week.

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Zach Stuck: what batch is actually standing out, and then the next part is the theme of that of that batch to your point like once you're a bigger brand, you can start hiring

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Zach Stuck: different agencies. You can start hiring more partners to kind of like. Get that diversity. But I think if you're a small brands, just like treating them as batches every week and say, Okay, Batch, for this week is going to be a theme that's around testimonials next week. It's going to be a comparison thing. Maybe. Then we're going to loop in some humor the following week, or then we're going to try and do a podcast. Concept. I think, like, that's where a lot of smaller brands struggle with the diversity thought process where they're just like, Do I need more videos? Do I need this tiktok thing?

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Andrew Foxwell: Yeah, I mean, like, how do you know? I mean, I I have. I have my own opinion on this. But like that, that's 1 thing of like when we're talking to talking to a brand.

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Andrew Foxwell: It's like, How do you? How do you know? And my answer is always

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Andrew Foxwell: I you know, you have to basically anticipate that you need to have 20 to 30% of your creative always being on just absurdly out of out there concepts all the time, because otherwise you're gonna you're you're going to over refine what you said.

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Andrew Foxwell: But I don't know like.

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Zach Stuck: If you guys think that's a bad answer or not.

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Zach Stuck: someone like David is gonna have a higher hit rate than most people. So perspective.

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Zach Stuck: probably a little unique. I think what I like to say is like.

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Zach Stuck: we're gonna take probably a hundred shots at goal. And we're gonna probably get one of them to be like a full standout ad that really allows the ad account to break through.

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Zach Stuck: and that's why we try all these different things. I think that there's a fundamental like, there's a couple different types of ads or formats of ads that generally we kind of have a good idea like that could work

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Zach Stuck: But at the end of the day, like it usually comes down to a sequence of events. And this is where the volume thing comes into play when people say, Hey, you need more volume. I need more ads. Media buyers are always saying, Hey, I need more ads. I need more ads. I need more ads, well, what does that actually mean? I think it means more new shots at goal, different themes, different types of concepts. But anyways, David, I'm curious how you think about that like.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, yeah, I I would say,

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davidherrmann: the way that the way that I would look at it

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davidherrmann: twofold I'm not a person that likes to do the crazy stuff frankly, what I found when it comes to like doing crazy, content and crazy hooks is that you get a lot of looks you lose, and not a lot of solid conversion. I find that there's a lot of agencies out there that will like all right, blow a bubble, and that's that's your hook. It's like.

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davidherrmann: what?

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davidherrmann: You know what I mean. Like, it's just kind of like, okay, the way that the way that I like to approach it is is that I want to be as authentic to the, to the brand as well as to the problem or the the product as humanly possible. If it's a brand that is a lot funner. Yeah, sure, let's take wild swings. But if it's a if it's a problem. Solution or apparel is a big one. Right? Apparel is like

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davidherrmann: apparel is the one where you can't. You really can't get away with that like apparel is the one where it's like, show me the product and how it looks on you, and that's it. I don't need to know anything else

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davidherrmann: right? If it's a i work with a lot in like, you know, Cpg, and and like pregnancy baby, all those kind of worlds like that's something that I've always worked on footwear. That's very much driven where it's like footwear. You're focusing on comfort, comfort like that's what people care about and so I'm always just going like, all right, what is the key call outs for this product problem solution is it is the problem, is it

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davidherrmann: product like product? A versus product. B, and then this is why ours is better. Is it a Pov version? Is it all these things? But I still go back to the same thing if your footage, if you're filming with an iphone, and it's the same kind of cuts to Meta's eyes, it's the same creative.

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davidherrmann: It really is like it's not so much. That's the concept of the video. It's the way it's shot is more than anything else is is where you look at this. So if it's just like if it's like.

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davidherrmann: if all I'm getting is a bunch of women talking to the camera

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davidherrmann: in many, it's the same thing. It's like there's nothing different about each of them, even if it's like a completely different creator. So instead, you're like, all right, I need to batch this to say, all right.

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davidherrmann: I'm gonna get a creator to do this, this and this. It's it's 3 different places, 3 different styles of things. And they're all gonna be approaching this from a different angle of it. So is that, does that make sense what I'm what I'm saying

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davidherrmann: does? Yeah.

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davidherrmann: And the best way. And the best way of saying it is. This is how I go with this.

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davidherrmann: I like to go on Instagram reels and and Tiktok, and just sift through. Just go really fast. Whenever something catches my eye

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davidherrmann: I stop and I go. Okay, how can I turn that into an ad?

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davidherrmann: That's what I do so I'll save them. I'll save it. I'll save all right. That's a cool concept. I'm gonna turn that into an ad. Oh, that's awesome. And then what happens is, I'm just sending stuff to you. Know. My, my, the guy works for me at like 3 o'clock in the morning, and I'm like, Do this. Do this, do this, but it's it's because it's always different. It's always something new. And since Meta's, you know, android media thing, and just kind of where they're heading

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davidherrmann: has really come into fruition. I'm noticing that creative testing has become a lot harder.

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davidherrmann: I don't know if you've noticed this, but hit rates have become less like it's. It's actually a lot harder to prove the system and the model right, because it does feel that if it if Meta doesn't like that one concept, and you make more versions of it. Meta goes. No, I don't like it.

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davidherrmann: I remembered it from last time. I don't like it. And you're like, okay, so that makes the kind of feels like iteration. I don't know if you guys have seen this. But

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davidherrmann: yeah, iterations had basically stopped working for me.

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Zach Stuck: I want to drill back on a couple of points that you said one was like the crazy hook stuff. So

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Zach Stuck: we dabbled with this with hollow in Q. 4. And it does its job with garnering attention. But does it work that much better? Very hard to say it definitely doesn't hold for a long period of time. Right? So, like my creative strength, has had me like taking all these like wild Tiktoks, where people are like falling, and like, whatever all this crazy stuff, right as the hooks for these videos to sell alpaca socks right? Which is kind of feels out of the blue and doesn't feel

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Zach Stuck: to the brands like main thesis like you were saying. Anyways, it kind of worked, but they never none of them held in q 1. So it was more just like a get the quick attention, and then talk about the big sale. And like, Okay, if that's the goal is like, get the attention really fast, and then push the sale during a high peak purchase period. Sure that maybe can work then, but I think from like an evergreen standpoint. It's not something that a lot of brands should put much attention into. I agree with you there that the craziness is like a short lived kind of win.

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Zach Stuck: and it only works when there's a high buyer intent. And or there's like some reason that they really should go and purchase right now. The other thing that you were talking about was at the end. There!

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Zach Stuck: I'm I'm forgetting where I'm heading, Brad. Do do you have any feedback thoughts? Sorry I'm I lost.

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Brad Ploch: Yeah, no, all good. I'm really curious about the strategy piece in general. Right? So, David, you're saying, there's a lot of options and ways that you can go. You can work with tons of agencies and tons of different types of people, and they specialize in focusing on different types of creative. How are you giving them directive? Or how are you guys deciding internally like

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Brad Ploch: this is what you should be talking about thematically, like, let's use. Let's use Hollow as an example, because Zach is here. We can give him free tips because he needs them like if he's saying like, Hey, we're going to go talk to hunters like I need you to make content about hunters specifically, and maybe you should talk about how it's great, because it's going to keep your feet warm. It's going to be moisture, wicking, etc. Are you giving that kind of directive with like, hey, here's kind of the theme to talk about? Or are you just giving them the reins to to drive.

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davidherrmann: Oh, like the creators.

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Brad Ploch: Yes.

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Brad Ploch: Creators, agencies. Yeah.

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davidherrmann: Yeah. So I give, I give loose examples of what I want, and I let them take take the range from there.

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davidherrmann: If it's a new agency I'm very much hand holding, but if it's an agency that we work with that knows the brand, I'm generally letting them guide. I'm just saying, Hey.

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davidherrmann: this is the direction I want you to steer this

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davidherrmann: because ultimately, I think I you know, we're hiring them to be creative. I'd like them to have some freeway to do what they need to do. But there's agencies that I work with, that I have to literally give them exactly what I want them to do, or else it goes off the deep end very fast they, but they produce.

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Zach Stuck: So.

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Andrew Foxwell: One.

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Zach Stuck: David, I remember what I was. Gonna ask. Sorry, real quick, Andrew. The hit rate component that you brought up, which is more around. Iterations aren't working as well now.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Getting a little bit harder.

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Zach Stuck: How? How do you address that? How do you address that? How are you thinking about that? Because normally.

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davidherrmann: You think.

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Zach Stuck: Oh, if the hit rate is low, I need more volume. But yeah, so so what are you.

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davidherrmann: So yeah, so I'm always so twofold. One is if I have an ad that works and it's starting to fatigue.

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davidherrmann: I'm gonna make other versions that are similar to that. But I'm not gonna make the same app essentially like, I'm not. Gonna take that hook and just change the second half. I'm gonna literally hey.

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davidherrmann: an ad about X is doing well. Therefore, okay, maybe it's the concept that's actually doing. Well. So I'm gonna make more concepts around that story.

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davidherrmann: It's just gonna be different, right? And then from a concept of

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davidherrmann: if an ad in a season doesn't work

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davidherrmann: that doesn't mean the ad failed entirely. It just means it didn't work in that particular season.

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davidherrmann: And so I always will go back and make a note of like creative that I'm like, actually, I really like these ads. I'm gonna go back and retest them in 6 months or 3 months, or things like that. And oftentimes I actually see them perform in a different season, for a variety of reasons. I don't know why.

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Zach Stuck: A phrase that you used to use a lot. David was like, is it in the Zeitgeist? This is like something that's like a David Herman like is always ring a bell with me for the last few years is like, is it in Zeitgeist? Is it relevant to what's happening now? I think that's your point right? I think we make a lot of ads that we think are going to work. And it just isn't.

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Zach Stuck: Isn't that time.

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davidherrmann: Let's see you. Then.

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Zach Stuck: There's something weird going on in the world like that that it's worth kind of revisiting at another point. Yeah.

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davidherrmann: Yeah. And and it's interesting. So I'll give you a quick story for a brand that I work with, where our conversion rate has just been dreadful the last couple of weeks.

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davidherrmann: Naturally, right? It's it's it's a product that you are. You don't need it. It's a product that you're gonna be fun to have, or it'd be cool to try and

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davidherrmann: I changed all of our product messaging in the last 3 days. Literally, I concepted all the videos. I said, you know what we're gonna play into the current environment that's playing out on Facebook.

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davidherrmann: We're not going to talk political. But we're going to play into the environment of how people are feeling, and we're going to give them an emotional make. Emotional escape. That's where we're going. Well, we launched the ads and our conversion rates and basically went from

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davidherrmann: it was like a last click point 8% to it's like a 1.6 2 or something today, or something like that, because, like, it's just a different. It's a different element. And being able to. I think just the biggest thing about these brands is being able to be super

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davidherrmann: quick at knowing when

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davidherrmann: when no one like. I think I said in your tweet right know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

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davidherrmann: There's times when you're like, you know what this ain't working, and I know within a day, if it's not gonna work like I can tell you, within a day.

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davidherrmann: because, like you, you live and breathe these ad accounts. And you're like, Nope, Nope, that's not gonna work. And being able to know, to cut it.

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davidherrmann: The hardest part of that is when you're working with these agencies. They're like, well, we just spent all this time making this stuff. You're gonna shut it off after a day. Yes, I am.

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davidherrmann: And you need to know, like the brands needed. They need to know that. That's how you're going to act. But then you're always like, no, we're going to go back and test it. This was this isn't the right time for that. Secondly, to add to that.

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davidherrmann: we always talk about creative diversity as a creative. But we don't talk about adversity when it comes to the landing page. And I think there's also an element where I've seen literally creative that hasn't worked on Meta because it's gone to the wrong landing page. I'll change the landing page. And suddenly it gets spent and starts to work. You're like, okay. The estimated action was just somehow misaligned there. And now it's working. So oftentimes I'm always running like a cbo of our best, performing creative against all of our landing pages and just letting the system figure it out, and whichever one it aligns to. I just lean into that and go.

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davidherrmann: That's a that's a fun strategy. If you're just sitting on tons of landing pages to try as well.

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Andrew Foxwell: So one thing I'm curious about is, so you go with a system. You sit down. There's a brand that's listening to this. They have experimented with creative diversity. They're trying things that are in the Zeitgeist. They're they're doing what we're talking about. Okay.

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Andrew Foxwell: Those that are successful brands, agencies that do creative or agencies that do creative and media buying.

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Andrew Foxwell: what are they doing in terms of regular assessment.

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Andrew Foxwell: And how are you guys doing this to build in

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Andrew Foxwell: a way that you are continually improving and identifying and moving things along like, you know, are, is it? The typical system, I hear is like, Okay, we go look last 7, we look at what's hit based on hook rate based on thumb stop based on, you know, whatever right? And you know, I'm sure there's all these people that are going to be like.

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Brad Ploch: You know that Metric's worthless, or whatever the Frick.

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Andrew Foxwell: Well.

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Andrew Foxwell: there's a lot of don't don't at me with that shit. I'm trying to make a point. Which is that like.

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Andrew Foxwell: What are. You know you're looking at that we look last 7. We go and continue to iterate those that are best in class right now at this.

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Andrew Foxwell: What are they doing? How are they assessing it? Are they assessing it the same way? And they're just better at creating? That's that's because we want a brand to come into this. Listen to say, like, all right, we need to up our shit. This is what we need to do.

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Zach Stuck: David, you want to take a step, or should I go first? st Okay.

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davidherrmann: You even know so.

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Zach Stuck: I think you just need to create

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Zach Stuck: actual consistency and the way that you do the work. And I think it comes down to intentionality. Right? So this is a word I keep telling my team. Intentionality, intentionality, intentionality.

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Zach Stuck: It's so easy to get caught up in the moment. See a post on Twitter or on Linkedin. And it's like, Hey, this new creative is like crushing. Or this is a new static that we made. And you just like send it. And you're like, Oh, we have to copy this right away. This is such a good idea. I think a lot of it comes down to

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Zach Stuck: setting like a consistent output pipeline, which is how we think about it. This is how many creatives we're going to make per week statics videos. What can I do, based on my budget. If you're a tiny brand, even doing 10 KA month, you can. You can set that baseline setting. The baseline feels really good. And then basically, it's okay. If I'm going to run 10 new statics a week, 3 new videos a week, if I'm a small brand, obviously, these numbers scale up infinitely as you can spend more on your a larger revenue business.

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Zach Stuck: then it's it's using a tool or something that can make your life easier for us. It's motion. We use it at Homestead. I know Brad uses it. David. Use it. Andrew uses it.

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Zach Stuck: It's a great tool for this, and like part of what motion's done and why we like it is, it's it's simplified. A lot of these things. If you're using naming conventions like David Herman mentioned earlier is.

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Zach Stuck: you can go in. You can look at tags. You can look at themes of ads that you're running like I mentioned, and on a weekly basis. You can go back and audit that and say, Hey, what is working this week? What didn't work this week? And what are the things that I want to go try next. So for me, that's like just starting with the baseline of saying, Here's how much we're going to make every week we're going to check it the same day every week, and then we're going to determine what we're going to make the next week. I think. Just like starting with that baseline and doing that consistently every week is how you actually

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Zach Stuck: stack wins. Otherwise you're just manic, like I see so many brand owners that are just constantly like launching ads at different times of the day, nights, weekends all over the place.

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Andrew Foxwell: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: I feel like that's just like it's just, there's no way the algorithm can get actual momentum when you're just doing manic decisions constantly versus just saying, Okay, we're going to be strategic about this intentional about this. We're going to try one theme this week and not giving up on that and saying, Okay, we're going to run it through. We're going to put enough spend to this to actually prove, do these ads work, or do they not work. Why or yes, great. Let's figure out why, if not, let's figure out why and go do something else different next week. I think it's just like comes down to that intentionality.

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Zach Stuck: So that's I'm just gonna start with that baseline and Dave, I'll let you rip.

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davidherrmann: No, I was gonna say, sort of similar thing. I think that

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davidherrmann: number one, in my opinion. And this might sound.

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davidherrmann: I'll just say it, anyway.

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davidherrmann: I think you need to listen to less people.

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Andrew Foxwell: Yeah, honestly sorry. Sorry. But.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, if I

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davidherrmann: like, we get like, I get so many people hitting me up that are operators and brand owners that are like, oh, I heard on this podcast. This. But then this, podcast. That this is like no stick with the groups that you're like, you know what I'm aligning with that tribe like that's the group that I'm going to listen to for this or that's for this, and I think, like we're drowning in information we are drowning in it.

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davidherrmann: and I'm like I'm on record, like I I don't really I don't. I don't have time to do and read and do all the contents like, I just get so overwhelmed with it all

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davidherrmann: where it's like, I'll pop in and listen to this podcast or this or this video or this video stick with your tribes, stick with it like, you know, if you're if you're a media buyer like this is probably a good podcast to listen to. If you're a media buyer, the marketing operator podcast is a good one to listen to. You probably don't need to listen to operators, podcast or, you know, sure like, but like we are just drowning in content.

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davidherrmann: And what ends up happening is you get so overwhelmed because you're getting so much thrown at you. And and then what happens is this new person will say this, and suddenly your brain goes there.

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davidherrmann: It's like, like, I actually agree with you, Zach, like stick with the fundamentals. Like, all right this week. Our whole concept is we are going to make the best problem solution ads for our product. And we're not going to do anything else like. That's how our focus is going to be. Right now. We're going to own it. We're going to learn how it works. We're going to see. Hey? Can we make a bunch of diverse creative off of this? And if I can start there and start to build that learning off of just one concept

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davidherrmann: and go then start adding on more and then more and more. But like, don't think you're just gonna throw everything out there out of the gate because you're just gonna get overwhelmed. And then you're not gonna know where to go, because you're just going everywhere.

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Zach Stuck: I think it's you're just. You spread yourself too thin. And then the quality of the work that you're trying to do, or the type of ads you're trying to launch, just like weaken right? Because then you're just then you're just doing the same thing over and over again without even realizing it. So I think slowing down and and taking larger swings at this is in setting a pace and saying, Hey, I'm okay with only launching this many ads. I see this brand saying they're launching a thousand ads a month. You don't have to do that.

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Zach Stuck: I mean, I'll stack wins and build into it. And I think the biggest thing is, some people

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Zach Stuck: like you said. There's so much noise that they get overwhelmed. They're just constantly trying to do the next thing that they can never get get in a rhythm.

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Andrew Foxwell: Yeah, man, big play.

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Zach Stuck: Why is that?

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Andrew Foxwell: About volume. You know what I mean, like, you know. Oh, you need as much as you possibly can, which I think to to going back to, you know, all the way to the beginning of David's tweet is

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Andrew Foxwell: talking about not just volume, but it's talking about speed, and I think that those are actually different things like, I think you can certainly create things that are going to be culturally relevant. That's a good idea. And you can get them done quickly. But it doesn't mean you need a billion of them. And actually.

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davidherrmann: Oh!

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Andrew Foxwell: The more it's it's kind of goes back to remember the days when we would talk about ad creative and testing it. I remember David in like our original scaling course, we did like 10 million years ago.

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Andrew Foxwell: It was. It was actually 6 years ago. By the way, that it got released. But.

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davidherrmann: Wow!

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Andrew Foxwell: One of the things we talked about is like don't just change the image of somebody wearing a blue hat and then change it to like a green hat like it's not enough.

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Andrew Foxwell: you know, and I think that's an underlying concept. And I think we know that. But yes, I completely agree with you about overwhelm of information, which is something you know we try to distill for you in the Foxil founders membership which I you know there's my ad right there. I'll leave it there.

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Brad Ploch: Well, I think I mean, I think what you guys are saying is like you can. You can set a plan for the month, and you can deviate within that plan. But it kind of like within these bars, right? So it's like, I'm gonna talk about this topic for the next 30 days like the way that I think about I've actually love for you guys to just like, tear this apart if you don't agree with this. But the way that we've been kind of thinking about this recently is like, let's set

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Brad Ploch: kind of the percentages of what we want to talk about this month. So we know that our product solves these 3 problems. We know that this one is taking up the majority of the spend right now. So we want to go deeper into that. So we're gonna put 50% of our effort and maybe not everybody has to quantify it. But like we're gonna put 50% of our effort into solving this angle or this this problem, or we call them pillars, and then 25% into the 2 other ones.

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Brad Ploch: And then within that, it's okay. I need to. I can break those angles down further. And when I look at that, okay, I've got. I've got 2 videos. But I'm mostly leveraged into statics, and it's just kind of like bringing that down and setting the strategy for the month with like to Zack's point. I'm defining the output. I'm defining kind of like, these are the core pillars that I want to hit on. And then how I actually approach that message is okay, I'm going to do statics. I'm gonna do videos. But within that, it's the podcast. Blah, blah, blah.

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Brad Ploch: and you set that for the month and on a week to week basis. If you see something in the Zeitgeist as you guys have been referring to, it's like you can. You can do a concept around that if you can get something cranked out you can still do that. But you're not like completely deviating away from your strategy, because, as you start to do that.

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Brad Ploch: Then you don't know if your strategy ever worked because you just didn't stick to it long enough to know. And I think that's kind of what you guys are loosely referencing is like, if you just abandon things weeks after it starts because you heard something new. It's like you never. You never really gave yourself a chance to know if your strategy was going to work. To begin with.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And and I think we're all you know where I'm where I think a lot of people's heads are at right now is

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davidherrmann: is

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davidherrmann: I mean, it's I think we can all agree. Like Mena's performance, I would say, over the past month and a half has been a roller coaster, and like, it's like, you're constantly coming up with new ideas, new things. And then you find something that works. You do find something that works for a week, and you're like great. It's working. We unlocked it. And then the next week, Nope.

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davidherrmann: and it's this is a really like we can examine that this is a tough time. This is not normal behavior that we are seeing in a typical thing. And

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davidherrmann: like it's, it's here's how I always look at it. And I think I I called Andrew yesterday because I was like, I just need a gut check from you like I get hit up. I I know things are bad when I'm getting hit up by so many people at the same time.

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davidherrmann: and I would say, like it ebbs and flows in a given year. Right? And it's like, last month it just ramped up of like brands. Hey.

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davidherrmann: are you? Look, are you? Are you busy? And it's like, Okay, so there's there's definitely there's something going on and you're just like, I mean, it's

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davidherrmann: it's not. I don't. I always want to stress. It's like

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davidherrmann: you're you're when you have those seasons of sort of like the the performance roller coasters. Either. This, the last thing you should do is add more complexity to it. It's like, go back, strip things down.

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davidherrmann: read the room. And so, whatever your products are, if it's selling socks, everybody needs socks. People need socks all year, right. But now you're competing in the market with Costco, because somebody's probably trying to save money, and the poop of socks at Costco

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davidherrmann: don't cost a lot of money, and it's like, Go for that. Right? Let's see, that's your competition now, is Costco, or or whatever it may be and like, that's where my brain goes. Whenever I'm working with brands. It's like, Okay, my consumer in this very moment

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davidherrmann: is likely 35 to 45 year old female. Because that's the data is telling me 35 to 45 year old females that are living in these 5 areas. Okay, in those 5 areas based on what's happening here. My feeling is that this is kind of what they're thinking about on a daily basis. They're heading into summer. There's a lot of uncertainty going on with their summer vacations. They're probably feeling a little depressed because things are getting more expensive.

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davidherrmann: Alright, how do I speak to them. And then I go. I work from there and I go. Okay.

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davidherrmann: this is my core focus. I have my always on campaigns, my always on activity that I know always seems to work. But I'm always in the back of my mind, going like, all right. This is like a shifting time for people.

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davidherrmann: and I. So then I go that route because I I did a whole research. A month ago. In the chat gpts like deep research thing, where I literally grabbed every major brand that was marketing between 2,006 to 2,012.

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davidherrmann: And I said, I want you to do a research project for me on how messaging shifted pre during and post 2,008 recession.

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davidherrmann: and it came back to me with some really relevant information.

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davidherrmann: And what it basically said was like certain legacy brands focused on nostalgia

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davidherrmann: because they knew that, hey? They're not going to change their prices because they can't. And then the brands that could change their prices, they focused on value. And they they up their value. And so like, I'm like, Okay, and then I start to examine the Dsc brands I work with. I'm like, okay, this brand has more of a legacy than this brand. And then I start to like kind of move down from there and then my messaging shifts based on that. So like, that's how I'm I'm doing it. And then I go to the creatives

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davidherrmann: team. And I say, All right.

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davidherrmann: this is the angle I want to go with for the next 3 weeks. Continue to make your always on stuff. But I want you to add, in 3 or 4 new videos around this concept.

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davidherrmann: now go.

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davidherrmann: And then, it's just always in the back of my mind of, like the wild cards, the wild cards, the wild cards, and yeah.

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Andrew Foxwell: So I mean, I think, speaking to you know, really, what you're you're getting at is is like speaking to emotion. Just so much of what this comes down to, anyway, right? In terms of actually putting up creative tests.

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Andrew Foxwell: and like putting out things that are really gonna hit. But go ahead and finish what you were gonna say, Dave.

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davidherrmann: No, I mean, that's kind of it. It's just we live. People forget that we're running ads in social environments.

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davidherrmann: right?

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davidherrmann: Right? And so it feels kind of it like whether you like it or not. Your video ad is going to be right above or below. Something trump says right? Right? And it's gonna be like, Oh, trump saying this today. Well, that's a pretty negative thing, or that's whatever right? And it's like, like, that's what your ad is, and you do. I bet you, if you guys all took your data

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davidherrmann: and you looked at it based on negative news, I would be curious to see what your Ctrs from Meta, from at least Facebook are like when there's negative news versus positive news like, I bet you there's some I've never done this. I don't know if this is true, but I bet you there's probably some correlation, at least from Facebook feed

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davidherrmann: that changes based on the behavior of how this stuff? Because it just makes sense. Right? If it's positive signal, it's great. And it's negative signal, it's negative. And Instagram's why Instagram's the best, because it's not really like that, right? It's kind of. There's no news really there as much as it is on Facebook. So I digress. But I think that's my biggest takeaway is be social because you're in a social environment and start.

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Zach Stuck: Yeah.

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davidherrmann: Like that.

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Zach Stuck: We? We've noticed that with all the tariff news and kind of just uncertainty that's happened. Even the last called 30 days.

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Zach Stuck: The ads for us that stand out. The most are founder ads like there are ads of a real person, kind of down to Earth grassroots talking, I mean, for us. We're made in America. So like, there's half of the population that really resonates with that like very, very deeply. And they believe that made in America is like the best way. And so I know that you know, a 50% of people scrolling Facebook are going to really resonate with that component. But then the other half is really going to resonate with the fact that

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Zach Stuck: I'm a real person talking about. Hey? Here are problems that I face and that I solved. And I've built a business and we're supporting American jobs. And we're creating these opportunities. And all this type of stuff. Right? It's more of like a feel good story component. And they're like, yeah, I would support this business because of that. So I think, like to your point, there is a need to give

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Zach Stuck: give almost the opposite reaction that they're getting to a lot of the kind of the negativeness that that's happening in their feed right now. So to your point of, like the story the storytelling that you were doing for one of the brands that you're working with. How do we help people get get over this. How do we help people like think about it differently? So I think you can approach that.

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Zach Stuck: no matter what you sell, I think it's just like thinking

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Zach Stuck: thinking about how consumers are actually scrolling in the content that's around your ads. I think that's a really good call out.

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Brad Ploch: And Zack is available for hire as a founder and add videos.

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Zach Stuck: Yeah, yeah, I will be your founder for

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Zach Stuck: $9 a month. No,

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Zach Stuck: no, David, really good stuff. I think that relevancy of thinking about how people are acting around your ads and how that impacts your ads is super relevant versus just saying, Hey, let's let's go crazy. Direct response. And just assume that this is going to keep working and throwing sales in people's faces. It's like, I maybe don't even want to sell. I just want something that makes me feel a little bit better today.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Andrew Foxwell: Cool. Yeah, I appreciate.

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Andrew Foxwell: I mean, I think, David, thanks for joining us. I think.

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Andrew Foxwell: is there anything else on this topic that you want to be in the universe that you feel like we we need to get into in reference to

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Andrew Foxwell: creative systems, creative diversity, creative velocity, creative teams.

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davidherrmann: I think that the number one thing, when it comes to hiring a good team, a good, a good agency to work with is somebody who takes your feedback and actually executes on it.

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davidherrmann: I've worked with so many agencies that you'll give feedback to and like Nope.

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davidherrmann: we're gonna do it our way. And you're like.

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davidherrmann: it's not gonna work like it's, it's it's a very. It needs to be collaborative. And I think that's a really big thing is like, trust your gut like at at the end of the day, like.

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davidherrmann: you know, if you're if you built a brand, you probably know your brand, and you know your audience pretty good, I mean, at least I'd hope you do so. Listen to it, and and be like, Hey, no, that that style. Ad is totally against my audience, because I've worked with companies with it. An ad has sunk them because some agencies said, No, this is the way we're going to do it. This is the way we're going to market these people and people hated it

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davidherrmann: right. And and so you just have to make sure, like at the end of the day, you're the one in control, not

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davidherrmann: the agency. And being able to like, yeah, like, let them have their thing, but also be weary of like getting too derailed on some concept.

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davidherrmann: So yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Yeah, I think one last topic that I just want to hit on briefly, and I think it'd be remiss not to talk about it, which everyone does is all the AI creative stuff that's happening right? Motion is building tools. They've got these agents that are. I'm not sure, David, if you've messed around with them or not yet. There's obviously a few of the tools that we referenced earlier in the episode. All the Gpt stuff. How are you thinking about? AI? How are you thinking about incorporating that into creative? How are you thinking about that for smaller brands.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Hopes of it is like it makes developing these things, all these complicated things that we're talking about easier and hopefully makes like costs go down for brands.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: People at agencies lives easier and less stressful, and all that good stuff. So that's the that's the vision that I'm trying to look at it, or like.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: The scope that I'm trying to look at it through. But I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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davidherrmann: The key. The key thing that I believe with AI is it's not going to replace everybody. It's just gonna take 40 to 60% of the work out of those people to let them focus on what they're good at. Say, for example, the image generation.

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davidherrmann: I think that's that's an important tool that is being developed where a designer might not always be needed. But I think there's elements where designers will still be needed to come up with a new concept that no one else has come up with before. Right? Like there's elements where photography is still going to be needed. And so I think, like

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davidherrmann: leveraging those tools and sampling those tools is key. But also, like, I've already seen AI videos left and right. And

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davidherrmann: the Ftc is getting more and more strict at this stuff, and like brands, are getting going to get sued. And it's just a matter of time before you cross that one person, and it's usually someone in California, because California has the strictest stuff with this that your ad served to them, and they are some ambulance chaser lawyer that's going to go. Well, that's an AI video. That was no disclosure lawsuit. And you don't have recourse. And so

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davidherrmann: like, be weary of just running AI videos, left and right, like there, there's still an element where that stuff is like the the image stuff's fine like. Go for it like, just knock yourself out but also go like there's an element to where I always go.

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davidherrmann: If it was this easy like, like, you know, like I like, I'm I'm intrigued by these companies. But, like.

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davidherrmann: you know again, like I still have designers that I work with, I'm still having people that are shooting my content. I got a guy shooting content in Colombia today.

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davidherrmann: So that's.

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Zach Stuck: And I think that's I think that's important for people to hear, too, David, because

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Zach Stuck: working on some of the biggest, highest spending brands that there are indeed to see, and I think for them to know that you're not just like, Oh, David knows all this crazy AI stuff that we're not doing I think, gives smaller brands and smaller agencies a little bit more peace that it's like.

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davidherrmann: Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: You know it's not the end. All be all.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, it's not the end. I'll be all. And I always I. The AI stuff's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to me. It's like every day there's something new that I need to learn. And I'm like, no, I'm not gonna learn it. I'm gonna stick with like the things that I learned and like

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davidherrmann: I I sample with prompting like every day, but I'm always asking. I don't know what you guys like. I asked. Chat Gpt to make me the prompt like, if I was gonna try to do this. Can you tell me what the prompt needs to be? And it's like, Here you go right. It's like, oh, I'm so smart. I'm gonna go post that on Twitter.

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davidherrmann: It's like, but.

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Andrew Foxwell: Common. But it's prompt. Yeah.

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Zach Stuck: Yeah, yeah.

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davidherrmann: Yeah, but it's like, just learn AI, but don't feel like you need to like, quit your job for for 6 weeks. Still, go learn it like dabble in the stuff every day. Play around with the AI generator image generators. But don't fall into the Fomo just oh, everyone's gone this way I need to do.

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davidherrmann: You know, that's how I look at it.

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Andrew Foxwell: Yeah.

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Andrew Foxwell: Well, David, thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it.

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Andrew Foxwell: Everyone for listening to this episode.

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Andrew Foxwell: It's a it's been a good one. It's been a long one. And we're excited that you came and joined us on episode, 2

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Andrew Foxwell: of the scalability podcast. Be remiss to say, please go and share this and rate our podcast so that we get to the top of the charts. That's important to us. And let us know feedback as always, on what we can improve. You can always hit me up andrew@foxwelldigital.com as we talked about on episode one, the other guys aren't going to share their information because they don't want to.

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Brad Ploch: Tweet us.

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Andrew Foxwell: Have it, but I already know Chinese have all my shit, so

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Andrew Foxwell: and everybody knows where to find David Herman, the man, the myth the legend, thanks, Dave, for being here.

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Brad Ploch: You're welcome.

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Zach Stuck: Safe.

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davidherrmann: Yep.

Mary Foxwell

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